For Women Scotland lose case

Grim sorry for you Scotland

Just a suggestiion, but can anyone who has the link to the announcement of the appeal start a new thread with this clearly being the title.

I think many on FWR would like to hear this, but wont be bothering with this thread.

I cant find anything that clearly announces this.

Thanks

I don't think we can rely on dictionary definitions long term, as the English approach to dictionaries is descriptive not prescriptive

We need a definition that encompasses differences in sexual development in order to capture the full reality and not exclude people. I have heard that this is something that is difficult to do, but have had a go. My proposal includes the ability up to a point in time for people with DSD to officially change their recorded sex - something I don't think is available at the moment. I have tried to be sensitive, but words designed to be used for legal purposes are inevitable cold and hard. I am truly sorry if this inadvertently upsets anyone with a DSD, I have tried to produce a workable definition with a legitimate aim:

"Sex is different to Gender. When determining the Sex of an individual:

Male means a human who was born with anatomy that generally results in the production of sperm and not the anatomy that generally results in the production of ova.

Female means a human who was born with anatomy that generally results in the production of ova and not anatomy that generally results in the production of sperm.

Generally means in the population as a whole. The ability of an individual to actually produce ova or sperm either absolutely or at a particular point or period in time is irrelevant.

Sex cannot be changed. However, rarely, an individual may have indeterminate anatomy at birth or it may be discovered at a later date that their natural anatomy does not align with one of the above definitions. In such cases an initial sex may be assigned and this may be revised up to age 25 taking into consideration, where there are elements of both male and female anatomy, the individual’s own assessment of their sex. This time period allows for completion of puberty (full development of sexual anatomy) and brain development (full development of decision making regions)."

An alternative would be to include a third descriptor of sex, such as intersex, as an option for people with DSD who as fully developed adults do not define themselves as either male or female. I think they have this in Germany?

In 2021 we're supposed to think such a scenario, where only females can apply for a rape counsellor role, is terribly bigoted, but it clearly was not considered so by the people who drafted the EA.

Note that the MTF transsexual person with a gender recognition certificate is not included in the "woman" who can be required for the role.

As I demonstrated upthread, the explanatory notes of the Equality Act 2010 refer to a "woman" when they clearly can only mean a biological female, as they specifically say that a transsexual person can be excluded from working in a rape counselling service "even if she has a gender recognition certificate".

If people contributing to this thread think the definition in the EA2010 is unclear that it actually means biological sex, what wording would be clear to define 'man' & 'woman' & 'male' & 'female' as biological sex, so as to avoid this inexplicable confusion that some people have with (to me) clear wording that confirms 'man' & 'woman' and 'male' & 'female' refers to biological sex.

If a word is not specifically defined in an Act of Parliament, surely it is understood that the definition of that word is the commonly used dictionary definition.

For female, that would be something like "of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to bear young or produce eggs".

'Woman' is given the specific meaning of 'a female of any age' to indicate that 'woman' includes girls. 'Female' is the dictionary definition which relates to biology.

From this we can conclude that 'woman' means any female person, which is a biological definition since the dictionary definition of female is biological.

Online dictionaries now include definitions like: "having a gender identity that is the opposite of male", but in 2010 when the EA2010 was passed, the only dictionary definitions would have been the biological ones.

Ahh Betsy that’s the exact quote I need to —ram down— send my MSP! Thank you

There's also this response from a FOI:

"The Scottish Government gives sex its ordinary meaning. The Equality Act 2010 says that in relation to the protected characteristic of sex, a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman. Man and woman are defined for the purposes of the 2010 Act at section 212; ‘man’ means a male of any age and ‘woman’ means a female of any age.

The Scottish Government does not have an official definition of gender."

www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202000116319/

If the only thing preventing the kind of discrimination usually dealt out to women was living as a man by using a male name and pronouns then I am gutted I didn't do this before

I might be out of turn here but the act needs to make provision for the Crocodile Dundee squeeze.

He understood the definition of a woman - eventually.

Here's a challenge.

If people contributing to this thread think the definition in the EA2010 is unclear that it actually means biological sex, what wording would be clear to define 'man' & 'woman' & 'male' & 'female' as biological sex, so as to avoid this inexplicable confusion that some people have with (to me) clear wording that confirms 'man' & 'woman' and 'male' & 'female' refers to biological sex.

I'd be keen to hear how others would have done it better than Karen Monaghan. She sounded quite smart & articulate to me in that session, but maybe she just needs it explained better so she'll be able to learn and 'do better'.

Actually, looking back on that exchange, I think this answer here:

"All that section does is ensure that there is no need to keep defining 'woman' to include 'girl'. If it meant what you would like it to mean it would have been written differently. Where, pray, is mention of biological sex in the Equality Act?"

Is a good enough reason to expand the definition to make crystal clear that, as Karen Monaghan says, means biological sex - because then people like Robin can't use the claims that they're just 'concerned' about removing the "difficulties for particular people". Whereas this comment shows Robin quite enjoys creating difficulties for women by suggesting that language thats clear to most genuine good faith contributors isn't clear. How else can Robin justify coming onto MN & gloating over a legal case Robin isn't involved with & which Robin knows is quite important to a lot of women? Especially when Robin has been told by the women who wrote the EA2010 what the definition means. But Robin says she's wrong.

I wonder why Robin would push that narrative? It's a real puzzler 🤔

Also further proof that sex and gender are not interchangeable in law. In the EA sex refers to biological sex, and persons with a GRC are mostly treated as a person of the sex they identify as. But not, hypothetically, in this suggested scenario.

Robin

A counsellor working with victims of rape might have to be a woman and not a transsexual person, even if she has a Gender Recognition Certificate, in order to avoid causing them further distress.

What do you think this refers to exactly if not a biological female?

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/26/1/1

All that section does is ensure that there is no need to keep defining 'woman' to include 'girl'. If it meant what you would like it to mean it would have been written differently. Where, pray, is mention of biological sex in the Equality Act?

Karen Monaghan helped write the EA2010, did she not? And here she is telling you, Robin, what sex means in terms of the EA2010 in the evidence session you both attended recently with the WESC.

Are you saying the QC who helped write the act is mistaken?

Where, pray, is mention of biological sex in the Equality Act?

What do you think 'female' means?

A Silk who starts his submissions by suggesting that s212 of the EqA helps (note how that was ignored by the judge) isnt really taking the argument forward, IMHO

Given that s212 states the definition of woman as "a female of any age" it seems quite relevant, IMHO. It was not ignored by the judge at all, but, even if you think it was, then that would make it a good point to challenge in the reclaiming motion.

Perhaps you can appreciate that women are not keen to seek advice from someone on a MN board who does not understand that when when the word sex is used in the Equality Act, it is referring to biological sex.

For law to work and be upheld it needs to reflect the principles of its society , or you need to be in a strongly controlled state Not a democracy

A Silk who starts his submissions by suggesting that s212 of the EqA helps (note how that was ignored by the judge) isnt really taking the argument forward, IMHO

But time will tell.

Are you a double silk Robin? I think women would prefer to rely on the expertise of a QC who is an expert in Scots law.

The Scottish judgment looks pretty soundly based to me.
Good-oh, clearly other qualified people disagree with your totally unbiased personal assessment.

Backing FWS to the hilt