For Women Scotland lose case

“A counsellor working with victims of rape might have to be a woman and not a transsexual person, even if she has a Gender Recognition Certificate, in order to avoid causing them further distress.”

“It refers to someone one who is ‘a woman and not a transsexual person’. The comparator would be a woman who IS a transsexual person.”

Are you trying to frame it that they mean.
“a woman who ISN’T a transsexual person.” (being the converse of “ a woman who IS a transsexual person” )

Rather than: A counsellor working with victims of rape might have to be a woman** because a transsexual person ....

**Where the comparator would be a man

Happy to argue it in court some time.

You do that Robin.

It's quite clear who they are talking about here.

It is, but I had a little bet with myself what would be the response, and I'm pleased to say I owe myself a drink.

Technically the EA2010 outlines that both ftm and mtf people can be lawfully excluded from female services, one on account of their maleness, the other on account of perceived maleness.

Hmm. Which one is which I wonder, whatever do all these words even mean anyway.

It refers to someone one who is ‘a woman and not a transsexual person’. The comparator would be a woman who IS a transsexual person.’

I've just had another thought about this. I'm not sure why you use the word 'comparator' here, but if it is saying someone must be 'a woman and not a transsexual person', surely that means that the person must fit both of those categories: a woman and not transsexual. So this excludes all men (trans or not) and all transsexual people, whether transmen or transwomen. Biological women only, who don't identify as transmen (who might look more male than female if taking testosterone).

It refers to someone one who is ‘a woman and not a transsexual person’. The comparator would be a woman who IS a transsexual person.’ Would you suggest that a trans man - who is a biological female - would be acceptable? That is what this guidance excludes - a man who is a transsexual person.

Let's look at the actual wording in the EA.

A counsellor working with victims of rape might have to be a woman and not a transsexual person, even if she has a Gender Recognition Certificate, in order to avoid causing them further distress.

Do you really think they are talking about a transman here? It says "Even if she has a GRC". Why would they refer to a transman with a GRC as 'she'? And why 'even' if she has a GRC? A transman having a GRC would make them less eligible for a female-only position than a transman without, since they would have become a man in legal terms, and should be treated (in most cases) as a man.

If you read through other instances of where they refer to transsexual people, they always use 'she' for MtF and 'he' for FtM, so this also makes it unlikely that it is a transman who is being referred to here.

The EA2010 also gives this example in the explanatory notes (para 740):
A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7/5

It's quite clear who they are talking about here.

Are you seriously arguing that the transsexual person to be excluded from female only rape counselling session is a female to male transsexual & not a male to female transsexual? That's your argument?

Still unclear to me if it is believed that the woman who is a transsexual person is transman or trabswoman

“What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”

Yes. She is wrong.

Quite the bold claim. So the QC who co-wrote the EA2010 says woman/man/male/female refers to biological sex, and you tell her she's wrong?

Presumably you can provide us all with better wording if Karen has failed in language most other good faith contributors understand to mean biological sex. How would you word the definitions so that its crystal clear to you, seeing as you're in the minority in not being able to understand the wording/definitions in the EA2010? If it's so ambiguous as you claim, provide the definitive wording that solves all the confusion.

The very fact of 'exceptions' is built on the premise of a difference.

And I'm sick to death of people pretending there is no difference.

But more than that, I'm totally over people trying to squeeze meaning out of words that don't have that meaning.

Knock yourself out personally, but for the love of God, do not expect other people to go along with it.

If males wanting to access roles set aside for females through loopholes because those drafting the legislation never once supposed there would be such a deterioration of the definition of woman or female, doesn't that simply point out that those males are trying to force changes against the intention of the legislation.

Obviously, it also means that from now on, every single bill needs to have specific language and definition. Which means that inclusive language will need to also be defined or removed so that future ambiguity is limited...

This is the result of people who are NOT part of the group they are forceably accessing, insisting that language changes over time and therefore they can claim to be included in the 'new' definition. Meanwhile, those people previously fitting that description are left without the protections that were intended.

For some, it must feel really good to redefine women to suit your own purposes. Against the will of the majority of women might be an even better outcome for others too.

The criteria of their acquired gender (legal sex for most purposes) I mean.

There are exemptions in both the GRA and EA for the occasional exclusion of transsexuals from the criteria of male/man and female/woman.

There is no other way to be female other than biologically.

Quite. But the claim that there is no mention of biological sex in the EA is disingenuous. The explanatory notes specifically reference the possibility of excluding all MTF trans people, even GRC holders from a rape counselling role. And say that only a "woman" might be appropriate. So women is shorthand for biological female.

There is no other way to be female other than biologically.

Part of the flaws in the drafting of the EA 10 is that it didn’t expect this current utter lunacy.

Indeed. But I am more than happy to expose it, if that's what's going to happen. If people are going to argue the toss, let's bloody have it. It will show the entire nonsense up.

The EqA makes no mention of biological sex.

Again (my bold):

A counsellor working with victims of rape might have to be a woman and not a transsexual person, even if she has a Gender Recognition Certificate, in order to avoid causing them further distress.

What do you think this refers to exactly if not a biological female?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/26/1/1

Part of the flaws in the drafting of the EA 10 is that it didn’t expect this current utter lunacy.

Completely agree.

OldCrone

The EqA makes no mention of biological sex.

What do you think 'female' means?

Yep - waiting for an answer. Happy for anyone to reference the biological differences between my mother and my father if that helps for clarity...

Part of the flaws in the drafting of the EA 10 is that it didn’t expect this current utter lunacy.

The EqA makes no mention of biological sex.

What do you think 'female' means?

The EqA makes no mention of biological sex.

The partial quote from KM to the WWSC leaves out the 'of any age' from s212. So why is that there?

As you say, in 2021 it may now need to be emphasised that it is the biological meaning which is intended, since some people now seem to think that 'female' is a feeling which a penis haver may have about himself. (I was going to write 'male person' there instead of penis haver, but I realised that if 'female' is a feeling then so is 'male', so in this new world where words no longer have meanings, a 'male person' could just as easily be a biologically female person as one who is biologically male.)

Ta.

😭