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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we the Baddies? Yes (well some!) according to the Daily Express: LGBT community is at war with itself, transphobia in the LGBT world has to STOP

140 replies

MishyJDI · 23/03/2021 12:09

I have to agree with a lot of this: Too much time worrying about a minority in echo chambers like this, and not enough fighting the real issues of feminism - patriarchy remains the number one enemy!

Mostly the younger generation get it, which is why there is such a disconnect and dismay expressed often on here.

(I'm sure this will make the Bunbury tales of scones and jam recipes - but seriously, trans ideology obsession on here is ludicrous.) Let's focus on real changes for women and girls that improve all our lives.

From the Daily Express

www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1413110/transphobic-trans-what-is-transgender-JK-Rowling-LGBT-community-TERF/amp?

The LGBT community is at war with itself, transphobia in the LGBT world has to STOP - COMMENT

RESIGNATIONS from three Government LGBT advisers over Equalities Minister Liz Truss and Boris Johnson's Government failure on LGBT rights (including dragging its feet to grant trans people rights in the UK) comes as no surprise.

By Maryann Wright

Ending the trans culture war once and for all, and outlawing so-called conversion therapy which treats sexuality and gender nonconformity as a choice or mental health problem, is a stagnant, three-year-old promise. Policy delay from the Conservative government is frustrating and devastating for our LGBT community, but the continual warfare amongst our own is a deeply insidious undercurrent that needs rooting out too. I’m talking about transphobia within the LGBT community.

The small group of lesbians who believe that transwomen aren’t real women because of an essentialist and reductionist belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology.

The distorted fear that transwomen will invade women’s spaces to victimise them, or even more outrageous, coerce lesbians to sleep with them, implying that lesbians must accept transwomen as sexual partners so as not to be labelled as trans-exclusionary, and that sex isn’t based on consent.

Or the assumption that men will misleadingly dress up as women and pose threats of sexual violence in women’s toilets because of Britain's 2010 Equality Act that protects trans people from discrimination in accessing single-sex spaces.

A small group of lesbian feminists called “Get the L Out” even go so far to claim that lesbian-only spaces are disappearing because of transwomen, “leading to difficulties in meeting like-minded women.”

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women and genderqueer, non-binary people, for the very purpose of offering alternatives to male-dominated LGBT bars and clubs, I call BS.

I agree that LGBT spaces and activism is still male-dominated, and that more needs to be done to promote equality within the LGBT community, but the idea that transgender inclusivity harms women, and lesbians in particular, is just ludicrous.

Persecuting an even smaller minority within an already marginalised community is counter intuitive and harmful, whether you’re taking an LGBT or feminist perspective.

Firstly, let’s bust an insidious myth. There is no evidence that trans-inclusive laws lead to a rise in assaults, stalking or harassment in single-sex spaces.

The loud, transphobic noise coming from trans exclusionary radical feminists, or TERFs, of late is fear mongering.

Trans activism isn’t eroding women and girls' rights to single-sex spaces by "offering cover to predators," nor are trans-inclusionary policies "playing fast and loose with women's and girls' safety".

Do you know whose safety we are playing fast and loose with in this debate, though? Trans people.

Almost 50 percent of transgender people have experienced a hate crime because of their gender identity in the last 12 months, and 67 percent of trans people surveyed by the Government Equalities Office said they’d avoided being open about their gender identity for fear of a negative reaction.

Transphobic arguments weaponise transpeople as if they are transgressors, harking back to the old and demeaning cinematic trope of cross-dressing serial killers, and yet the reality is that trans people are the ones being transgressed.

We need to be protecting trans people, not the other way around. Any suggestion otherwise is incongruent to the facts.

It isn’t too small a point to also remember that transgender people make up 13 percent of the LGBT community, so any claims that transwomen are invading lesbian spaces is an exaggeration at best.

All of this fear mongering strikes me as history repeating itself.
Thirty years ago we were having this discussion about gay people, living under the revolting Section 28 of Margaret Thatcher’s government, which prohibited the promotion of homosexuality. Back then, living my cis lesbian life in the UK would have been questioned and persecuted.

Now, we are lucky to have made real progress in battling homophobia, and we need to ensure that progress passes down to our trans friends.

Lesbian rights are not under attack by the trans movement.
Transphobia has no place in feminism and no place in the LGBT community.

It is not a competition about who is having the most horrible time. There’s not a finite amount of equality.

Yes, the dominance of the patriarchy is alive and well, and misogyny is exhausting.

But it is not mutually exclusive to recognise that society as a whole is patriarchal and women are more likely to be killed by a partner, earn less, and find it difficult to go back to work after having a baby, and that people get to decide their gender identity.

Let’s also not confuse cismen with transwomen. The lived experience is entirely different, whether or not you respect their gender identity.
So many people have a complete disconnect with the lived experience of a trans person, and they don’t take time to consider this before casting judgment.

We need to stop perpetuating hypothetical fears not based in reality. The distortion and the hyperbole is destructive. The conversation has to mature.

How about we move the discussion to supporting trans people. Let’s ensure the Gender Recognition Act and Equality Act is fit for purpose. Let’s ban conversion therapy.

"Let’s instil a supportive framework within the LGBT community that encourages a person’s right to choose to express their gender identity."

The in-fighting needs to stop, let’s work with trans people to protect their right to a life of self-definition, safety and peace.

Maryann Wright is the Founder of Sappho Events, producing safe, sober and social events for LGBT women and non-binary people. www.sapphoevents.co.uk

OP posts:
merrymouse · 23/03/2021 17:10

The article completely and utterly fails to understand the first principles of human rights.

The small group of lesbians who believe that transwomen aren’t real women because of an essentialist and reductionist belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology.

Please explain, OP, why and when you think anyone creating policy and laws that restrict rights cares about identity?

yeahbutnaw · 23/03/2021 17:09

It's your life -
Post obsessively about whatever you please,
Donate every penny to whatever failed legal crowdfunders you want,
Obsess about any minority that takes your fancy.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But base your entire personality on trans people?

Usagi12 · 23/03/2021 17:07

@Helmetbymidnight

Men must be allowed to identify as women.

If you say no, you're probably a far-right conspiracy theorist.

Grin

You poor thing.

Not relevant to the conversation but I LOVE this username!
CharlieParley · 23/03/2021 17:06

@yeahbutnaw

Solid agree.

It seems like most of the people on here treat trans-exclusion as a personality trait.

I see a lot of overlap with QAnon members to be honest. For most, it seems to be this pervasive obsession that they pursue regardless of how it affects their day-to-day lives.

Graham Linehan for example - gave up his career, marriage and friendships for it.

Just answer me this question:

Where does the female survivor of male sexual violence go, when trans inclusion in the local rape crisis centre means the female-only therapeutic environment she needs to recover from male sexual violence is no longer offered?

I am not talking a hypothetical, but from my own lived experience.

What service may I access?

And if I can only have that service if I campaign to recreate that same service that female people built for female people 40 and 50 years ago, will you accept that the motivation for such a campaign would arise not from any bigotry on my part, but as an expression of my need for a female-only therapeutic environment to recover in?

(I'm talking about myself here, but I am far from alone in this. Given that frontline workers freely acknowledge that 99% of their female service users have a fear of male people and need a female-only therapeutic environment to recover this is not surprising. And I have indeed met and communicated with many other women who also find themselves excluded when male people are included in women's spaces and services.)

Helmetbymidnight · 23/03/2021 17:04

Men must be allowed to identify as women.

If you say no, you're probably a far-right conspiracy theorist.

Grin

You poor thing.

Helmetbymidnight · 23/03/2021 17:02

Men must be allowed to play in women's sports. People who object are just like Q-anon.

Grin

Oh dear.

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 23/03/2021 17:01

@WoolOfBat

mobile.twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1373625651434024964

Is this how we support trans women? By dedicating 20% of an obgyn course to trans women and 0% to menopausal issues?

This is mind blowing. How did we get here? Women's health is underfunded and under-researched as it is and now the work that is going on is being annexed.

"the gender health gap stems from a severe lack of historical research into women’s health issues."

www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/14265113/women-illness-gender-health-gap-endometriosis/

Rockinmomma · 23/03/2021 17:00

Mostly the younger generation get it, which is why there is such a disconnect and dismay expressed often on here

Right.... the generation stuck to devices? The generation dependent on validation of strangers? The generation with NO IDEA of reality?
The younger generation are easily led and groomed online, but sure.... they ‘get it’

CuriousaboutSamphire · 23/03/2021 16:57

@yeahbutnaw

Solid agree.

It seems like most of the people on here treat trans-exclusion as a personality trait.

I see a lot of overlap with QAnon members to be honest. For most, it seems to be this pervasive obsession that they pursue regardless of how it affects their day-to-day lives.

Graham Linehan for example - gave up his career, marriage and friendships for it.

Good grief! So absolutely determined to give/take away the rights of women and girls to any dignity and safety!

And to say Linehan gave anything away is just the kind of re-writing we see a lot of.

Did Doc Stock piss up her own door too?

There's a phrase for that...

yeahbutnaw · 23/03/2021 16:50

Solid agree.

It seems like most of the people on here treat trans-exclusion as a personality trait.

I see a lot of overlap with QAnon members to be honest. For most, it seems to be this pervasive obsession that they pursue regardless of how it affects their day-to-day lives.

Graham Linehan for example - gave up his career, marriage and friendships for it.

WoolOfBat · 23/03/2021 16:39

mobile.twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1373625651434024964

Is this how we support trans women? By dedicating 20% of an obgyn course to trans women and 0% to menopausal issues?

StanfordPines · 23/03/2021 16:20

The small group of lesbians who believe that transwomen aren’t real women because of an essentialist and reductionist belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology.

What about gay men who think that trans men aren’t real men. Are they the same? Or is it just nasty lesbians.

MichelleofzeResistance · 23/03/2021 16:06

If you don't think this is a real issue of feminism then you've got an extremely warped idea of what feminism means, and a problem with your lack of respect and care and inclusivity for female people.

The realities we're talking about are realities, and if you support idiocy like this article, what you essentially support is the oppression of many women particularly from vulnerable groups, homophobia and misogyny. At least have the guts to look into this, face up to the realities and own that you believe sex is binary, and that one sex should always have its needs met with the other sex having a duty to shut up, serve and be sacrificed.

You could support solutions in which all people matter and everyones needs are catered for.

UppityPuppity · 23/03/2021 16:01

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women...I call BS.

You don’t call BS, you spout BS.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/03/2021 15:58

It's all ridiculous. They can't even follow their own rules.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 23/03/2021 15:58

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Also when the "Women's" March London tweeted (since deleted) that in 1973 there were "27 menstruators in parliament" ie basically using it as a dehumanising term for "women", rather than the totes inclusive language we are constantly gaslighted told it is by people like Lisa.
Seriously? And they’d checked that none of those ‘menstruators’ had had a hysterectomy or gone through early menopause had they? How utterly ridiculous.
RedDogsBeg · 23/03/2021 15:53

Yep, I saw that. It was shameless. Really drove the point home that it’s not and never was about “inclusion”

Agreed, include people who are not biological women and no care, thought or consideration for those biological women who will be excluded most of whom will be vulnerable or already on the very edges of society. It's reprehensible.

Telling women and girls who have been subject to sexual abuse and rape and suffer appalling trauma because of it to just get over it summed up the revolting attitude and agenda of TRAs and their craven supporters who chant the TWAW mantra.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/03/2021 15:53

Also when the "Women's" March London tweeted (since deleted) that in 1973 there were "27 menstruators in parliament" ie basically using it as a dehumanising term for "women", rather than the totes inclusive language we are constantly gaslighted told it is by people like Lisa.

Sophoclesthefox · 23/03/2021 15:27

@NiceGerbil

I think there was a suggestion that women and girls who didn't know was a cervix was, were thick or something.

Eye opening

Yep, I saw that. It was shameless. Really drove the point home that it’s not and never was about “inclusion”.
Helleofabore · 23/03/2021 15:26

How does inclusive language around medicine enable discrimination against women?

How about when Sands started to post without referring to women as Mothers? So that people who had lost their babies felt further dehumanised and detached from the organisation that was meant to be supporting them. And in the meantime, the female that tried to have themselves listed something other than their baby's mother, started bullying women saying that the Sand's post made them feel dehumanised.

Or when people concerned that there is a male in the breastfeeding fb group that can only meet on line and may need to show a picture of their latch or their body, and express that concern, they are told there is only women here in this group and that phobia is not welcome so if they are uncomfortable they should leave the group. (This has happened too during the past year in lockdown, if in doubt)

There are many ways this plays out.

The rape survivor that wrote and clarified that she only have a female hcp for her breast exam found her letter was being used by that NHS trust as an example of transphobia. Completely ignoring a) her privacy and b) the implication is that they would also ignore that request. (and still label that woman as a bigot when she refused if a transwoman was in attendance at her appointment. And I understand it is a legal right for anyone to ask and expect a same sex hcp).

Recently, the Scottish law was changed to allow a rape victim to request a female examiner. The law was going to be 'gender specific'. It is now sex specific. This puts the onus on the Scottish Government to make damn sure they have enough female examiners to be able to fulfil their legal obligations now.

Sophoclesthefox · 23/03/2021 15:26

@RedDogsBeg

Datun, Funny how we keep being told that no-one out there in the big wide world agrees with us here on FWR, we are in a echo chamber, wrong side of history, and yet time and time again when the public at large are asked they align with and agree with the points we make and objections we have. I'd suggest that the echo chamber is not FWR.
I’m sure there’s a reasonable explanation for how it can be that we’re all so out of touch with what every normal person thinks, yet whenever every normal person is asked to opine, their post could have been written by your average user here...

Asmall group of lesbian feminists called “Get the L Out” even go so far to claim that lesbian-only spaces are disappearing because of transwomen, “leading to difficulties in meeting like-minded women.”

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women and genderqueer, non-binary people, for the very purpose of offering alternatives to male-dominated LGBT bars and clubs, I call BS

I can’t tell you how much I enjoy the juxtaposition of these two paragraphs Grin. I will translate from wokeish to English: “some lesbians complain that formerly lesbian spaces now feel unwelcoming as they’re not women only. I myself run a space that purports to be women only, but welcomes males, and I don’t see the problem”.

Grin
AlwaysTawnyOwl · 23/03/2021 15:23

Nobody is saying that tw and cw have the same lived experiences either! Just as gay women’s experiences differ from straight women, and disabled women’s experiences differ from able bodied women, etc etc LisaStansfield

TW are biological males. The lived experience you need to compare is with a man who presents as traditionally male, and a man who does not.

NiceGerbil · 23/03/2021 15:23

I think there was a suggestion that women and girls who didn't know was a cervix was, were thick or something.

Eye opening

NiceGerbil · 23/03/2021 15:22

Sophocles on a cervical smear thread one of the responses to that was something about education needs fixing then so go away and sort that out.

That's very inclusive and caring isn't it :/

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 23/03/2021 15:17

I have to agree with a lot of this: Too much time worrying about a minority in echo chambers like this, and not enough fighting the real issues of feminism - patriarchy remains the number one enemy!

Mostly the younger generation get it, which is why there is such a disconnect and dismay expressed often on here

But what is at stake is a principle with huge ramifications. The very definition of what a woman is. Once lost, the important rights that women have won based on their biology are open to any man that wants them - that's what self-id is. This isn't a minority issue.

The phrase TWAW epitomises what is at stake. In English law a woman is defined in the Equality Act as an 'adult human female'. Based on biology. TWAW says that an adult human male IS a woman. Not - living as though they were a woman, but actually a woman. And of course a GRC which Stonewall would like given out to anyone who wants one, also gives a new birth certificate saying that the holder has changed sex, a biological impossibility.

Womens sports, single sex spaces and services all exist for a reason which hasn't gone away. Self-id by allowing anyone to be a woman on the basis of a self declaration gives basic rights away to anyone who wants them. That's why it's not a minority concern.