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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we have a 'back-to-basics' thread about trans issue please?

210 replies

Aspiringmatriarch · 21/03/2021 17:22

I hope it's ok to start a thread potentially covering a lot of well-trodden ground on FWR which is probably therefore a bit tedious, but I lurk and read a huge amount on here (and more widely) and I've struggled to come to firm conclusions. My sympathies are more on the 'GC' side which seems pretty common sense to me, but then I step outside this forum and obviously there is a whole different perspective and in fact contradictory information being presented. So I'm left wondering who has what agenda, how reliable all the research and polls and statistics etc actually are, and what to make of it all really.

An example - I've seen posts on here that the widely cited statistics about suicide attempts in young people who are trans or have gender dysphoria, are basically false and scaremongering parents into a medical pathway. Could anyone point me towards information about this?

I see the word ideology bandied about a lot online - 'trans ideology' obviously but also another 'T' ideology I won't post on here (hopefully that's clear!) So essentially there are two competing claims that the other side are antiscience, dogmatic, advancing a quasi-religious belief rather than material reality. As a non-scientist I feel at a disadvantage wading through all the literature as I can't really know if what I'm reading has much good science behind it.

An example - the pink brain/blue brain stuff. I don't feel I have a 'lady brain' and would certainly reject the terminology, but I believe it's the case that there are certain structural differences between male and female brains. Has this been debunked or is it irrelevant to the trans issue? And what's the evidence for the role of hormones in utero? It sounds potentially credible to me but I know gets short shrift on here because it sounds dangerously close to saying women can't do x y z or are 'naturally better' at doing all the low status boring stuff. Which I disagree with obviously but there is some evidence for certain strengths/ areas of interest on average isn't there? Possibly I'm dragging in a whole separate issue but it comes up in the trans discussion as the argument is presumably that trans people are just gnc and have bought into the idea that they're in the wrong body somehow. So the idea of having a gender identity is just sexism. I kind of get that but I'm not sure if explains the dysphoria aspect and things like brain scans showing similar activity in mtf trans and female subjects. I know the concept of being trans has moved away from dysphoria anyway, which leaves me even more perplexed.

I actually have far too many questions for an already overly long post, and a lot more on the political side of things (GRA reform, Keira Bell case etc) but if anyone feels inclined to respond I'd really appreciate it!

OP posts:
TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 21/03/2021 18:33

"Stonewall School Report: What Does The 45% Attempted Suicide Rate Really Mean?"

www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-what-does-suicide-rate-mean/

334bu · 21/03/2021 18:20

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4197899-Trans-train-3

You might find this interesting regarding lack of proper evidence regarding suicide ideation.
Video clips quite enlightening regarding policy being driven by ideology rather than scientific evidence.

theThreeofWeevils · 21/03/2021 18:19

Thanks, OldCrone, stupid tablet only doing top level links for some reason.

Aspiringmatriarch · 21/03/2021 17:49

[quote TheRabbitOfCaerbannog]Hi OP, here's a new "comprehensive synthesis" of brain studies...

"Highlights
•
Meta-synthesis of 3 decades of human brain sex difference findings.
•
Few male/female differences survive correction for brain size.
•
When present, sex accounts for about 1% of variance in structure or laterality.
•
Male and female brains are monomorphic, not dimorphic, in structure and function."

Here's Professor Lise Eliot's thread explainer:

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=twitter.com/lise_eliot/status/1373315409475072001?s=21" target="_blank">go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=twitter.com/lise_eliot/status/1373315409475072001?s=21 And here's the study:

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763421000804[/quote]
That's really interesting, thank you.

OP posts:
Aspiringmatriarch · 21/03/2021 17:49

Thank you, I hadn't seen that one.

OP posts:
JoodyBlue · 21/03/2021 17:36

I came to the conclusion a while back that the discussion about the issues trans people face is not one I can participate in because I am not trans. I can participate in discussions on the issues that women (on average) face because I am a woman. So I focus on that. I am clear that women experience life in relation to their sexed bodies, and as a group stand together to explain the experiences that are common and to advocate as a group for the needs that are common.

Also as a mother, there are lots on this forum Smile, for clear communications, education, and support for our kids, which includes holding the parent line to prevent them harming themselves where possible through the difficult years of development.

This is where I focus my arguments. The conversations about trans rights are something separate. Important and necessary. But different. The issue is women are being told that we cannot hold those conversations. So the "side" I take is to advocate for women's right to speak. That does not negate the experiences of trans women in my opinion, and it would be far more likely that we could all get along together in society if we acknowledge that.

RickiTarr · 21/03/2021 17:34

You must have some thoughts of your own on it all OP.

Tell us what you think and then we can chip in or not.

OldCrone · 21/03/2021 17:32

Link to the break it down for me thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?

theThreeofWeevils · 21/03/2021 17:30

The Break it down for me thread, lower down the page, is a good starting point.

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 21/03/2021 17:28

Hi OP, here's a new "comprehensive synthesis" of brain studies...

"Highlights
•
Meta-synthesis of 3 decades of human brain sex difference findings.
•
Few male/female differences survive correction for brain size.
•
When present, sex accounts for about 1% of variance in structure or laterality.
•
Male and female brains are monomorphic, not dimorphic, in structure and function."

Here's Professor Lise Eliot's thread explainer:

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=twitter.com/lise_eliot/status/1373315409475072001?s=21 And here's the study:

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763421000804