Can we have a 'back-to-basics' thread about trans issue please?

So tell us the "biological markers" from the not gc point of view?
Gender critical is critical of gender.
Which is not biological, gender is a social construct.
If there is a biological point I'm missing please enlighten me rather than making snarky non points.
What are the biological markers that can diagnose a trans identity?
If there is one maybe you should inform the tavi?

So tell us why transwomen are not male then please. You said it was biological so interested to hear.

While you're back can you comment on the people with vaginas submitted to systematic rape approach to news etc please.

Above post shows your understanding of the issue only comes through the "GC" lens.

'What are the biological markers for being trans?'

Presumably a niche study of a small part of the brain or something which is ??? or similar. Maybe something to do with clownfish.

The really fucking obvious biological markers that I'm sure humans have recognised since the first few evolved, and I'm pretty sure all mammals understand are of course trivial

Cock, balls, semen

Vs

Vagina, breasts to feed young milk, pregnancy and birth

These differences are not important, biologically essentialist, possibly fetishistic and have no effect of the lives of human beings at all and never have.

Simple.

Maleness is what distinguishes transwomen from every woman on earth, and is the characteristic shared with men. It is not possible to be a transwomen without being male.

Saying it's a medical condition is generally seen as transphobic.

So that's interesting.

Of course many people have different views but I think that saying transwomen are not male is a fairly strong stance so I'm surprised to see the medical condition comment.

"recognised medical condition with a range of biological markers,"
What are the biological markers for being trans?
I thought it wasn't a medical condition?
So confusing.

Trans women aren't males though.

That's all you need to know.

That's the gender argument, the gender ideology, the logic, the reality denial.

Right there. That's it.

I am rather literal and logical.

The arguments around this are circular, illogical, contradictory etc. Makes me twitch. Before the stuff about prisons etc is even near.

A while ago someone said that when people say TWAW it's not generally that they think they are literally of the female sex. It's that they've changed the definition of women in their head. That made sense to me.

We seem to be losing female as well. As predicted a few years back.

Give an inch etc.

Certainly mental health is a huge issue.

Trans women aren't males though.

Ask yourself which group is more likely to be involved in an ideology

The first thing to say is that you've come to the wrong place. Asking about trans issues here is like going to the Catholic church to ask about homosexuality

Or. This is also a website that has parents whose children identify as trans. This is also a website with a slew of people from different professional, cultural and other backgrounds that contribute to dissecting and discussing the impacts of trans rights on the rights set aside to protect women and girls from sexist discrimination due to their sexed bodies.

Even the sexist discrimination that seems to be very apparent in the hand waving of the higher health risks suffered by female transitioners, and the hand waving of the unique needs of the current cohort of young female transitioners (who vastly outnumber the young male transitioners). In fact, recently the doctors behind the Dutch Protocol which has been the major push for puberty blockers have released statements about how this treatment needs a lot more care and research because it was recommended for a different group.

So, maybe this is a good place to gather information.

And maybe the supposed thousands of scientists and doctors you keep referring to need to be taken with some scepticism.

You keep pushing that list of ‘thousands’ who signed a political letter and I would suggest there are a large number of scientists on that list that are in completely irrelevant fields, and that some that are relevant may have significant career investment in certain treatment paths being adopted.

Are you ok with the catchall term for the vast majority of MTF trans people and men being "people with a penis", gender fans?

'who belong to a political group who have some ideas that are brought into question by the existence of the people with the medical condition.'

These would be ideas like

Human beings are mammals and as a rule come in male/ female with different apparatus for reproduction

Along with that are other differences on average between the two groups

That the penis group has oppressed the vagina groups to a greater or lesser extent all over the world and as long as we remember

Those sort of beliefs?

The existence of people who have dysphoria about their sexed body/ have an internal sense that they are the opposite gender or somewhere in between challenges this how?

I don't have an internal feeling of gender but I accept that others do. Same as I have no spiritual feelings but I accept others do.

Why does this challenge my beliefs..?

I thought being transgender was not a medical condition

I'm surprised at that statement.

And you're assuming the genders of people who don't agree with you (again). That's also seen as bad form I thought.

Trans women aren't males though

This is the point where anyone reading will realise how worthless your arguments are, when they will realise that you will say anything - no matter how meaningless - to avoid truth.

Ask yourself which group is more likely to be involved in an ideology:

1. A group of people with a recognised medical condition with a range of biological markers, being helped by doctors and scientists all over the world who study their condition, it's causes, effects and treatments, and publish their findings in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

2. A group of people who don't have that medical condition, who are not involved in research, treatment or studies of that condition, but who belong to a political group who have some ideas that are brought into question by the existence of the people with the medical condition.

You are again alluding to far right are you? So, members of the Green Party who have been members for decades are now suddenly far right too? When will this ridiculous agenda to paint anyone who disagrees as being ‘right wing’ or whatever stop. This is the UK.

Yes, this is political. Because women having been seeking discussion, seeking debate about the rights needed to overcome a millennia of sexist discrimination against women and girls based on our sexed bodies. Not gendered. Sexed. So, yes. It is political.

What is a group more likely to be involved in an ideology? Women who have experienced sexist discrimination and violence and know exactly what happens if their rights are diluted or eroded? Or people who are telling others they can change sex? And that a penis can be a woman’s penis? And that women no longer can use the word woman to uniquely identify themselves as a sex class?

Also note that trans women and girls get various words.

Woman/ girl when that suits
Trans woman /trans girl when that suits
Increasingly female and also the gender-assuming 'cis'.

Cunty people get no group words unless we're referred to by our reproductive parts.

People with vaginas is so long. Cut to the chase. Cunts will do. We've been called worse and at least the intention is clear.

Fromthe link in my previouspost.

The majority of the children and young people we see do not self harm, nor do they make attempts to end their own life. Although there is a higher rate of self-harm in the young people who are seen at GIDS compared to all teenagers, it is a similar rate to that seen in local Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAMHS).

Male and female are being redefined.

Shizuku confirmed that if anyone needs to talk about the cunty half of the world and issues that affect them they they must be referenced by their reproductive parts.

So that's pretty clear.

The fact that even charities and news outlets that are 100% on board with this still use women and girl to mean cunty when they want donations etc. Is a cowardly cop out.

They support this language. Fucking own it then. Put it on the front page.

They are referencing this paper:

They are actually referencing their own experience.

gids.nhs.uk/parents-and-carers#im-worried-that-my-child-may-harm-themselves

There have been FOIs which showed that the number of children referred to GIDS who have attempted suicide is extremely small.

Well, you need to ask yourself if all the doctors and scientists across the world who talk about suicidality in young trans people are likely to be all secretly working together in order to put out false statistics in an attempt to scaremonger patients on to a medical pathway. Sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory doesn't it? That's because it is

Shall we focus on the UK since we are a UK based forum? And here in the UK it has been also noted that the suicide rates (as per Tavistock) are no higher than other groups with similar vulnerabilities. Still high, yes. But not higher.

Shall we also look at what else is reported by Tavistock that clinicians have noticed a certain degree of coaching by groups to answers around suicide by some patients.

It should also be noted that a recent study published by the American Journal of Psychiatry stating that titled “Reduction in mental health treatment utilization among transgender individuals after gender-affirming surgeries: a total population study,” have retracted its primary conclusion due to it being actually not able to prove it at all.

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/09/71296/?fbclid=IwAR1qhY36S81bxLIL-Gm04MemcwA8R0OBpG5iCy_CrUM6tGttrO98Un-WLTE

I am posting the above as it has links.

So. As has been posted in response to your stats on other threads, no one disputes the numbers are high. What is disputed is that they are higher than other groups. And that they are often used to push for moving to an affirming only treatment plan with not alternative options that are tailored to the individual needs of patients. And that there is little acknowledgement that transitioning doesn’t necessarily help mental health the way many people like to state.

Shizuku can you really see no issue with using 'people with vaginas' when the topic relates to, well. The cunty types?

Why do you think the orgs that use the sort of language you have recommended, don't put it on the front page even when the item is about people with vaginas.

I think it's because there would be outrage from the general public. Referring to women and girls kidnapped, raped, sold, tortured, impregnated etc as 'people with vaginas'.

And what of males- people with penises I assume?

So. All too often. This group attacked the village. All people with penises over the age of 10 were killed. People with penises under 10 were kidnapped to be trained to fight. People with vaginas under the age of 25 were taken... Etc

It feels long winded
It feels dehumanising
It feels crass to refer to people by their genitals when they are people. Segregated on what used to be called sex and murdered, raped, or taken to train as soldiers.

This is what you suggested.

Can you seriously see no issues with it?

Trans women aren't males though.

What are they, then? The definition of a transwoman is a male who 'identifies as' a woman.

Female people can't be transwomen. Or can they? Could I identity as a transwoman?

For me, 3rd spaces makes sense as a way to ensure the safety of everyone but the problem is they won't be properly funded and provided, will they? And obviously anyone using them would run the risk of being outed as trans which has implications for their safety (and again this would include trans men). So I'm not sure it's a panacea, if indeed there is such a solution to be found. Maybe in future there will be a move towards individual, secure gender-neutral cubicle (ie with proper walls and doors) but that doesn't help with the here and now.

I think 3rd spaces are the way forward. They wouldn't have to be exclusively for trans people. They could be for anyone who is happy to use them. So using them wouldn't out you as trans. That way women can still have the single sex spaces they need. And trans women don't have to share with men.