Can we have a 'back-to-basics' thread about trans issue please?

There is no evidence that children and young people who claim to be trans are more likely to commit suicide than others.

Something that I wonder about, if the supposed suicide rates amoung trans people are so high, who are they? Why do we never hear names of actual people.

If so many young people are doing this or attempting to, you would think you'd see reporting on it. Where are all the parents calling for action because their son/daughter tried to or did kill themselves over it? You'd think they'd be hoards of them raising publicity, talking to the press, going on chat shows etc and demanding action but I've never seen even one reported anywhere.

Well that gives me some hope. It is very tiring holding the line isn't it? It is only those I care about who are hurting that keeps me holding it sometimes. That and my absolute inability to lie. There are lots of victims in this ideological battle and they are not the ones doing the shouting. On either "side". Not that I think there are "sides" in any case.

[quote JoodyBlue]@Datun - when I see that I feel so angry at the women, who have previously benefited from the fights of feminism, going along with it. I don't really understand how or why that happens. I have seen many of my peer group capitulate and go along with throwing women under the bus. The gaslighting makes me feel dizzy. Those I know who have really experienced trauma now appear shell shocked and uncertain. Not sure who now to trust. OP this is the result of the "be kind" mantra. Those already abused have had their safety net pulled and now perceive those they previously called allies have let them down, those they trusted. It is the reality. Almost unbearable.[/quote]
I think about that too. And have concluded it's for several reasons.

Partly not wanting to rock the boat, because, as we all know, once you see it, you can never go back. Partly being conditioned in a patriarchal society. Whether that's automatically giving men more credibility or simply not confronting them.

And of course being conditioned into the role of support human. It's a role that can get you a lot of approval. And it ticks a lot of boxes. You're apparently being kind, inclusive, progressive, supporting a minority, and all just by saying some words.

It's a lot harder to say no. But what is happening is that the things women are being asked to agree to are getting more and more obviously misogynistic. So saying no is becoming easier.

Agree about the hectoring, imperative tone of so much of this debate.

Capital letters. Repeated mantras.

REPEAT AFTER ME.

GET USED TO IT.

NO DEBATE.

So hostile and aggressive. Thankfully for the most part the conversation seems to be softening somewhat - I think most people are at least willing to admit now that the issues and potential conflicts between women's rights and trans rights should be discussed.

Apart from the Scottish gulags, of course.

@Datun - when I see that I feel so angry at the women, who have previously benefited from the fights of feminism, going along with it. I don't really understand how or why that happens. I have seen many of my peer group capitulate and go along with throwing women under the bus. The gaslighting makes me feel dizzy. Those I know who have really experienced trauma now appear shell shocked and uncertain. Not sure who now to trust. OP this is the result of the "be kind" mantra. Those already abused have had their safety net pulled and now perceive those they previously called allies have let them down, those they trusted. It is the reality. Almost unbearable.

The phrase TWAW, to my mind, is simply an enforcing tactic of activists.

Indeed. This is the response to lesbians.

I have seen people on twitter recently argue there is a ‘social’ meaning of sex that needs to be considered. It was a male who stated it.

No.... the sex class of male or female refers to reproductive capability. It always referred to reproductive capabilities.

Women don’t need it mansplained to us, nor what the axis of our oppression is.

I do love the fundamental point about the fecking clownfish.

If you can't properly describe what male and female are, HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY CHANGE SEX?

Excellent resources there NecessaryScene

I’d not see those before. I’ve now etched “she makes large gametes” on my brain.

I did like many of the other descriptors of females too...depending on the species : “winning at life”, “big” “decorated with males”. This also goes to disprove the existence of gender having a biological basis I think.

If you believe that 'woman' is an identity and that your value as a person depends on having that identity affirmed by others, then 'TWAW' is a statement about value.

Unfortunately it completely undermines all the language that women need to protect their human rights. You need quite a lot of privilege to believe that affirmation of self is more important than the basic human rights of others. It might be possible to spot a pattern...

The phrase TWAW, to my mind, is simply an enforcing tactic of activists. I don't think trans people ever thought to take that literally - at least until a decade ago. A few years on and people have been banned from thinking on the subject, perhaps some people are taking it literally. Many people will go along with stuff for a quiet life.

Add the "no debate" and it is revealed as sloganeering. In effect it says "I don't care what you say, what you think, or to hear your experience. TWAW, get over it!"

The "get over it...." is also quite a recent communications tactic. There is a really nasty bullying undertone to it, rather ironically.

I mean, the fact is right there in the word itself. You are only 'trans' because you are saying you wish to dissociate yourself from your sex. That is the meaning, isn't it?

I think the phrase TWAW is such a weird one - it's an inherent contradiction. The aim I suppose is to somehow make the 'trans' disappear into the 'woman'. But it's not possible linguistically, biologically, philosophically. That wee word won't go away, it's where this ideology butts up hard against reality. The only way to accept it is by a kind of mental transsubtantiation. One has to accept the impossible as truth.

Decent stable decisions

Decent stable definitions.

Fuck I'm typing bollocks today.

Maleness is what distinguishes transwomen from every woman on earth, and is the characteristic shared with men. It is not possible to be a transwomen without being male.

Yes, of course. Surely nobody is denying this?

Are you aware of farming? Are you aware of childbirth?

Lol.

What do the words 'male' and 'female' mean when they are no longer biological descriptors?

The amount of bollocks is quite tiresome isn't it. Decent stable decisions let you do deep analysis, and find deep truths.

This childish bullshit has only one aim - stopping you from actually thinking. If we knew what male/female meant as definitions, then we could get on and find out what conclusions you can draw about what it is to be male/female.

Some of us are simple souls and like simple definitions, which then let us get on with the real thinking. So I just use the same definition of "male" and "female" for every 2-sexed organism on the planet.

Saves a lot of hassle.

For those who haven't seen it, here's Emma Hilton's (originally Twitter) exhaustive list of "how to recognise the female".

Blogpost form

I'm still trying to figure out how much of the clash between women's and trans rights is real and how much manufactured and don't want to fall into the trap of 'punching down' at another vulnerable group.

Women need the right to language to define sex based oppression. Women had to go to court to protect this right just this month.

Because of their sex, women are and have been excluded from the right to work, the right to education, the right to healthcare, the right to be recognised as a human being with rights... the list goes on.

There is no need to create specific anti-woman laws to oppress women. All you need to do is organise society around a default male and fail to acknowledge women's sex specific needs.

I'm not sure how the concept of 'punching down' even works in this context. Women need sex specific rights across all groups, regardless of their identity.

Do women need single sex spaces? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Single sex spaces are sometimes used to protect (The only truly reliable form of contraception), and sometimes used to control (The only truly reliable form of contraception). However, it's impossible to talk about the difference if you don't have language to talk about women.

Compared to this, on a website full of pictures of the visible consequences of sex, we are asked to consider that something that might be on a brain scan is a signifier of gender, that gender is fluid and you can switch between 'girl mode' and 'boy mode' and that somehow this thing more relevant than sex.

I know I sound like a stuck record, but the sexism is truly breathtaking. (Although perhaps not completely surprising if you remember the days when this board was more likely to be frequented by MRAs).

*Cock, balls, semen

Vs

Vagina, breasts to feed young milk, pregnancy and birth*

Lolol at the above being 'through the gc lense' do you know any people? Do you know any animals? Are you aware of farming? Are you aware of childbirth?
If me (a woman) and a transwoman have sex, who is at risk of pregnancy? Who would ejaculate semen?
Who is male and who is female...?
The answer does not require any lense of any type to see it

Since the word woman has lost all meaning, the most informative mantra would be “transwomen are not people with vaginas”. Would this be acceptable, do you think? Do you think this would go down well on Twitter as a reply to TWAW? It should, since it’s not supposed to be reductive or offensive at all.

How can a transwoman not be male? A transwoman is someone who was literally born male. If a transwoman stops taking cross-sex hormones, the original male hormones will begin to reassert themselves.

What do the words 'male' and 'female' mean when they are no longer biological descriptors?

I'm still trying to figure out how much of the clash between women's and trans rights is real and how much manufactured and don't want to fall into the trap of 'punching down' at another vulnerable group.

I can understand you feel conflicted. Most people want to accommodate the assimilation of trans people into every aspect of normal life.

The reason this board can seem quite hostile is because their is no nuanced discussion about this with government or lobby groups.

It seems you give an inch and it becomes justification to take a mile.
So as my mother always used to say 'the short answer is no'.

Its also not my right to facilitate the removal of other women's rights and say 'I think they should be allowed access to women's toilets'.

When the gov and lobby groups wish to reasonably discuss the long answer then I am sure the resolution will be gender neutral spaces. Women who are ok with it can use them and those that arent dont have to. Thats it really - its not 'othering'. Its quite a convenient space to have for all people for an endless array of reasons.

And why should they supercede physical sex?

Single sex stuff is because of our bodies.

What is the reason for switching it to be about internal feelings?

Personally I am happy to accept that some have this internal feeling. Even though I don't.

What I don't understand is why internal identity supercedes bodies when that is why things are single sex.

Me neither. What is the rationale for this, please?

Above post shows your understanding of the issue only comes through the "GC" lens.

Do enlighten us with the science, Hibari.

And why should they supercede physical sex?

Single sex stuff is because of our bodies.

What is the reason for switching it to be about internal feelings?

Personally I am happy to accept that some have this internal feeling. Even though I don't.

What I don't understand is why internal identity supercedes bodies when that is why things are single sex.

And another question.

People with penises attack, bully etc other people with penises a lot.

Why is there no push to get people with penises to stop being so awful to other people with penises, in general?

Why is that not an aim? It would help way more people.