Can we have a 'back-to-basics' thread about trans issue please?

There's an article in The Telegraph today which is a fairly balanced review of puberty blockers. It comes with a subsection about a mother and her trans son (ftm). In it she says that puberty blockers made her child feel suicidal, but that they also saved his life. I was taken aback that this young person was given yet more drugs to balance out the impact of the puberty blockers:

‘Alex told me he was suicidal, a feeling that was to last for several weeks,’ she says. When Alex repeated thoughts of self-harm to a counsellor at the Tavistock, Lisa was ‘horrified’. Alex was put on ‘suicide watch’ at school. ‘Eventually, we understood his low mood was due to the puberty blockers, so he was given a small dose of oestrogen that eliminated the feelings after a couple of months. No one is arguing that blockers are without risk, or that they have no side effects, but they were necessary for my son: they saved his life.’

www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/truth-parent-transitioning-teen/

The persecution narrative is likely to be damaging to the mental health of already vulnerable children as well.

The widely repeated claims that trans people are suffering escalating amount of hate and violence (although this is not backed up by any figures other than the hate crime reporting which seems to be extremely questionable and subjective) create an atmosphere where they can perceive persecution at every turn.

The person I know, white, well-off family, female has said that they feel unsafe on the street, not because they are female but because they are trans. The difficulty is that I don't think any random stranger would have any inkling that this person is trans. They dress in a baggy, casual way with short hair but just look like a young girl wearing baggy clothes.

I think this person genuinely has this perception of their interaction of the world but when the trans 'supporters' constantly tell trans people that we all hate them and want them dead that is not surprising. Any glance on the street, or snippy interaction in the shop is going to be interpreted as being against them because they are trans.

It is most likely that any attention this person gets (I don't think there has been any actual incidents, just maybe the odd glance) attracts any attention through being obviously female, not their identity.

It occurred to me that if a non-hormone/surgery transwoman dressed exactly as I am dressed today (hair tied back, a bit of concealer, jumper, jeans, trainers), precisely zero people would be able to see that they identified as a woman.

Here's a chunk from the Bell judgment

33. It is recorded in the GIDS Service Specification and the wider literature that a significant proportion of those presenting with GD have a diagnosis of Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD). The Service Specification says:

“There seems to be a higher prevalence of autistic spectrum disorder (ASD) conditions in clinically referred, gender dysphoric adolescents than in the general adolescent population. Holt, Skagerberg & Dunsford (2014) found that 13.3% of referrals to the service in 2012 mentioned comorbid ASD (although this is likely to be an underestimate). This compares with 9.4% in the Dutch service; whereas in the Finnish service, 26% of adolescents were diagnosed to be on the autism spectrum (Kaltiala-Heino et al. 2015).

34. The court asked for statistics on the number or proportion of young people referred by GIDS for PBs who had a diagnosis of ASD. Ms Morris said that such data was not available, although it would have been recorded on individual patient records. We therefore do not know the proportion of those who were found by GIDS to be Gillick competent who had ASD, or indeed a mental health diagnosis.

35. Again, we have found this lack of data analysis – and the apparent lack of investigation of this issue - surprising.

The Tavistock has said that suicide among their referrals is extremely rare. Awful though any suicide is, we can be thankful for that. I believe it was one in ten years, when we were talking about this in 2018.

Self harm and suicide ideation is higher than average amongst the trans community, as it is amongst other marginalised groups. All LGB, the disabled, and people with comorbid issues, etc. And especially autism.

The study by Stonewall said that of the respondents who claimed suicide attempts, half were disabled.

But as they didn't provide, or refused to provide, any further information, no real conclusion can be drawn. Despite what would look like an urgent need to do so.

Unless anyone knows if they have since clarified that statistic?

We are talking about the U.K. here. Suicide of children and young people is thankfully not that common. The main antecedents are bereavement (often, devastatingly, as a result of suicide itself) and mental health issues.

were 5.1 times more likely than nonreferred children to talk about suicide and 8.6 times more likely to self-harm/attempt suicide,

It isn't actually borne out in the completed suicide figures. There is no evidence that children and young people who claim to be trans do kill themselves more than other children and young people.

Also it has been estimated that 30% of trans people are autistic, which carries a higher suicide rate in itself. How do you separate them out?

Just noticed another ‘suicide’ thread deleted. Some posters are determined to push that agenda and in doing so forging the link of children with gender dysphoria being the most vulnerable of all.

Research has shown that in the UK that the likelihood of suicide is no greater in that group.

Is it high? Yes. Should more be done? Absolutely!

Care needs to be tailored to the need of each patient in the care of a gender clinic or on a waiting list or as soon as they need if. Just like all other health issues that have mental health effects.

While it is unclear what the numbers are, it is also important that the rights of others are not compromised because of it. Including compromising female transitioners health through lack of adequate resources and research and centring the male transition needs as a default. It is very important that the needs of females are given equal priority.

I think it is vitally important to use UK data. We know the treatment specifics here. We have clinician’s and clinic CEOs writing specifically about the situation here, in relation to treatment paths, outcomes etc.

We do also need to keep repeating that clinicians also advise that mental health often remains a significant issue during and after transition. They have also warned of children and teens giving ‘coached’ answers using keywords and talking about suicide to influence and manipulate diagnosis.

I've just been looking.

There's loads of stuff. The ONS has the figs obviously but I can't see the reasons.

I suppose it would be in the coroner's reports but you'd have to look at it all and collate etc

Bold fail in that previous post - that was quoting NiceGerbil

Shizuku if one of us can find something to show that young people aren't committing suicide over this in large numbers then that would be good news, right?

You'd think so, right? Otherwise you might suspect that vested interest were manipulating people by incorporating trans youth suicides into the narrative. Are there UK stats on this you can share Shizuku?

Shizuku if one of us can find something to show that young people aren't committing suicide over this in large numbers then that would be good news, right?

Or if they were in no different position with mental health to other children accessing those services.

I did have done stats ages ago about suicide I might be able to find them if they will give you a more positive outlook?

Need to be compared to the rates among other children with complex issues that get referred to hosp etc.

Not children who are not in that position, or siblings.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27238070/

"Results: The gender-referred children and the referred children from the standardization sample had significantly higher scores than siblings and nonreferred children in terms of self-harm/suicidality, total behavior problems, and poor peer relations. Based on logistic regression analyses, gender-referred children were 5.1 times more likely than nonreferred children to talk about suicide and 8.6 times more likely to self-harm/attempt suicide, even after overall behavior problems and peer relationship problems were accounted for."

Telling kids they are at risk of suicide.
Telling them they are at risk of being assaulted and murdered.
That their life expectancy is 35.
Its almost as if some people want trans kids to be terrified and have mental health problems.
Its a narrative thats serving someone, and it's not the kids.

Thanks Rabbit!!!

Organisation in good conscience can repeat claims that aren't true and in the process put young people in further danger:

Yes, keep asking. Because most mainstream journalists aren't. There is no evidence to back up claims of high suicide rates amongst trans young people in the UK. What is most shocking about this situation is that repeatedly telling young people that they are a suicide risk if their wishes aren't affirmed is actively dangerous because we know that young people are susceptible to suicide contagion. As I posted earlier, this is guidance from the Samaritans. Points nine and ten are worth looking at. I don't know how any organic

Keep asking, honestly these myths need exposing.

Sorry for asking, but I've been looking for too long and can't find any data for suicide rates of all teens vs trans teens - on another forum, the "save trans lives by letting them on girls sports" is the rallying call and everyone just nods along in agreement. One poor woman keeps asking for data because now she's scared shitless as her child is trans...everyone is just responding that without inclusive sports on girls teams, her trans girl is at risk of death. I feel awful for her, but also wonder, isn't this terribly irresponsible? What if she has a healthy trans girl who plays sports with boys but now she's worried it's dangerous?

surely we would be seeing this as a result of puberty blockers being all but withdrawn?

And you'd have seen the positive result of the 4000% uptick in diagnosis and treatment among girls in the last few years.