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Original poster

Can we have a 'back-to-basics' thread about trans issue please?

210 replies

Aspiringmatriarch · 21/03/2021 17:22

I hope it's ok to start a thread potentially covering a lot of well-trodden ground on FWR which is probably therefore a bit tedious, but I lurk and read a huge amount on here (and more widely) and I've struggled to come to firm conclusions. My sympathies are more on the 'GC' side which seems pretty common sense to me, but then I step outside this forum and obviously there is a whole different perspective and in fact contradictory information being presented. So I'm left wondering who has what agenda, how reliable all the research and polls and statistics etc actually are, and what to make of it all really.

An example - I've seen posts on here that the widely cited statistics about suicide attempts in young people who are trans or have gender dysphoria, are basically false and scaremongering parents into a medical pathway. Could anyone point me towards information about this?

I see the word ideology bandied about a lot online - 'trans ideology' obviously but also another 'T' ideology I won't post on here (hopefully that's clear!) So essentially there are two competing claims that the other side are antiscience, dogmatic, advancing a quasi-religious belief rather than material reality. As a non-scientist I feel at a disadvantage wading through all the literature as I can't really know if what I'm reading has much good science behind it.

An example - the pink brain/blue brain stuff. I don't feel I have a 'lady brain' and would certainly reject the terminology, but I believe it's the case that there are certain structural differences between male and female brains. Has this been debunked or is it irrelevant to the trans issue? And what's the evidence for the role of hormones in utero? It sounds potentially credible to me but I know gets short shrift on here because it sounds dangerously close to saying women can't do x y z or are 'naturally better' at doing all the low status boring stuff. Which I disagree with obviously but there is some evidence for certain strengths/ areas of interest on average isn't there? Possibly I'm dragging in a whole separate issue but it comes up in the trans discussion as the argument is presumably that trans people are just gnc and have bought into the idea that they're in the wrong body somehow. So the idea of having a gender identity is just sexism. I kind of get that but I'm not sure if explains the dysphoria aspect and things like brain scans showing similar activity in mtf trans and female subjects. I know the concept of being trans has moved away from dysphoria anyway, which leaves me even more perplexed.

I actually have far too many questions for an already overly long post, and a lot more on the political side of things (GRA reform, Keira Bell case etc) but if anyone feels inclined to respond I'd really appreciate it!

OP posts:
TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 25/03/2021 23:25

Because if it's not a mental disorder it reinforces the argument that those experiencing it should be treated with the affirmative model - they don't need dissuading from delusions.

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 25/03/2021 23:19

This reply has been deleted

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NiceGerbil · 25/03/2021 22:58

Shiz you seem to focus very heavily on

Trans women
Who have dysphoria
Who present as feminine
And who pass

There are loads of other trans people out there and any legislation will apply to all of them.

NiceGerbil · 25/03/2021 22:57

And yes it's true that seeing gender dysphoria as a MH condition is not current thinking.

This is why for children, there is a push to accept without exception/ not do counselling to see if there are other things at play/ and this has been encoded in the new bill to ban conversion therapy.

NiceGerbil · 25/03/2021 22:54

Did you read the message my DD got, Shiz?

These are bog standard kids in the suburbs.

The stuff circulating generally seems to really focus in on being at massive risk, and self harm. It's really worrying.

There are some old threads with more examples I think.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 25/03/2021 21:55

@Jillly

Is gender dysphoria a mental illness?
"By contrast, DSM-5 has removed ‘gender identity disorder’, renaming it ‘gender dysphoria’. It is possible to meet the criteria for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria within DSM-5 without experiencing body dysphoria relating to primary or secondary sexual characteristics,14 and the American Psychiatric Association emphasises that ‘not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria’.15

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/sex-gender-and-gender-identity-a-reevaluation-of-the-evidence/76A3DC54F3BD91E8D631B93397698B1A

Truthlikeness · 25/03/2021 18:17

The NHS also states that gender dysphoria is not a mental health illness.

www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/gender-dysphoria/overview/

ArabellaScott · 25/03/2021 17:11

Being trans is not recognised as a medical disorder or mental health condition

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48448804

Datun · 25/03/2021 16:55

It is, but most trans people experience it. Do you understand the distinction between "most" and "all"?

Do you have any stats ? I didn't think there were any.

But there are a number of people who have coined the term 'gender euphoria'

gardenbird48 · 25/03/2021 16:55

"The persecution narrative is likely to be damaging to the mental health of already vulnerable children as well."

The persecution itself is damaging to their mental health. This is from a 10 minute Google browse:

That wasn't the point I was making though. I am asking why a person that appears totally as their birth sex (apart from some baggy clothing) but identifies as trans would feel that they were at risk in public from being trans rather than female (their birth sex).

The passing stranger would correctly read them as female as opposed to trans (btw I'm not saying that if a stranger read them as trans that would be incorrect, it would just be unlikely because they don't look it - this is so hard to explain sometimes within the restrictions).

In the same way that there appears to be no reason for Danielle Muscato or Pips Bunce on a man day to feel at excessive risk from the man in the street due to being trans. If these people don't point out that they don't identify in the same way that they present (ie. Danielle presents as totally male but identifies as female) no one would be any the wiser.

Jillly · 25/03/2021 16:43

Is gender dysphoria a mental illness?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/03/2021 16:43

Do you have any evidence that most trans people experience medical gender dysphoria?

Shizuku · 25/03/2021 16:41

@Datun

Well you're out of the loop. We have been told many times that it's nothing to do with a medical condition. And it's transphobic to even say so.

We've also been vehement informed that gender dysphoria is completely unnecessary in order to be transgender.

Although, it's no surprise, that you can't keep up.

"gender dysphoria is completely unnecessary in order to be transgender"

It is, but most trans people experience it. Do you understand the distinction between "most" and "all"?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/03/2021 16:38

Well you're out of the loop. We have been told many times that it's nothing to do with a medical condition. And it's transphobic to even say so.

Exactly. Shizuku missed the memo. Like the people who thought "womxn" was inclusive.

Datun · 25/03/2021 16:36

Well you're out of the loop. We have been told many times that it's nothing to do with a medical condition. And it's transphobic to even say so.

We've also been vehement informed that gender dysphoria is completely unnecessary in order to be transgender.

Although, it's no surprise, that you can't keep up.

Shizuku · 25/03/2021 16:24

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Who told you that? I don't know any trans people who think that, and I know a lot of trans people.

There are plenty of trans people who think and have said that, so clearly you're not as much of an all knowing expert as you thought.

Sure - there must be some people who have said it, but it's hardly a mainstream opinion. I mean I have heard GC people say that all trans men should be sterilised, but that's not the consensus here... is it?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/03/2021 15:55

Who told you that? I don't know any trans people who think that, and I know a lot of trans people.

There are plenty of trans people who think and have said that, so clearly you're not as much of an all knowing expert as you thought.

Shizuku · 25/03/2021 15:53

@gardenbird48

The persecution narrative is likely to be damaging to the mental health of already vulnerable children as well.

The widely repeated claims that trans people are suffering escalating amount of hate and violence (although this is not backed up by any figures other than the hate crime reporting which seems to be extremely questionable and subjective) create an atmosphere where they can perceive persecution at every turn.

The person I know, white, well-off family, female has said that they feel unsafe on the street, not because they are female but because they are trans. The difficulty is that I don't think any random stranger would have any inkling that this person is trans. They dress in a baggy, casual way with short hair but just look like a young girl wearing baggy clothes.

I think this person genuinely has this perception of their interaction of the world but when the trans 'supporters' constantly tell trans people that we all hate them and want them dead that is not surprising. Any glance on the street, or snippy interaction in the shop is going to be interpreted as being against them because they are trans.

It is most likely that any attention this person gets (I don't think there has been any actual incidents, just maybe the odd glance) attracts any attention through being obviously female, not their identity.

It occurred to me that if a non-hormone/surgery transwoman dressed exactly as I am dressed today (hair tied back, a bit of concealer, jumper, jeans, trainers), precisely zero people would be able to see that they identified as a woman.

"The persecution narrative is likely to be damaging to the mental health of already vulnerable children as well."

The persecution itself is damaging to their mental health. This is from a 10 minute Google browse:

www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/trans-teenager-attacked-violently-school-2718414

"A trans teenager was left with boot marks on her head and a severe concussion after she was attacked by a girl while going to her school changing room."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47764844

"A transgender teenager has had his face cut during an attack police are treating as a hate crime."

metro.co.uk/2019/07/04/transgender-teenager-gang-raped-three-men-first-night-female-10112112/

"A transgender teenager was gang-raped by three men on her first night out as a female, police have been told."

www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/lancaster-girl-arrested-after-hate-crime-attack-transgender-teen-and-friends-williamson-park-3020492

"A 17-year-old girl has been arrested after a gang of around 15 teenagers attacked a transgender teen and her friends in Lancaster's Williamson Park."

www.gaytimes.co.uk/life/trans-person-walking-their-dog-pelted-with-stones-by-a-group-of-teens/

"The trans person was attacked by a group of eight teenagers, believed to have been aged between 13 and 14, who threw a bottle and stones at their head, one of the stones actually hit the person in the head. The individual has also been subjected to malicious messages."

www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/transgender-woman-speaks-out-after-19013288

"This same situation had happened with me before with my friends with a boy who just hit us all for absolutely no reason."

www.ardrossanherald.com/news/18167954.ardrossan-teen-todd-campbell-appears-court-accused-transgender-assault/

www.midlandszone.co.uk/news/teenager-charged-in-transgender-mcdonalds-attack/1599

"A teenager has been charged in connection with the brutal attack on a transgender woman in a McDonald’s restaurant."

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/ayrshire/brute-labels-transgender-victim-trans-20082139

"The tearaway admitted assaulting his 16-year-old victim by pushing the victim on the body and repeatedly punching them on the head."

www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/18632760.man-launched-attack-transgender-woman-southampton/

"The incident happened in Ludlow Road when the man abused the woman, specifically about her gender identity, before spitting in her face and punching her in the head several times."

Shizuku · 25/03/2021 15:31

@NiceGerbil

Saying it's a medical condition is generally seen as transphobic.

So that's interesting.

Of course many people have different views but I think that saying transwomen are not male is a fairly strong stance so I'm surprised to see the medical condition comment.

"Saying it's a medical condition is generally seen as transphobic."

Who told you that? I don't know any trans people who think that, and I know a lot of trans people.

NiceGerbil · 24/03/2021 22:58

One of my DDs is in a group of girls who have a range of identifies.

There was some stuff last year and I told her she had to let me read her phone.

One of the things I remember was a forwarded thing about how on a certain date transphobes were going to attack trans kids and kill them.

Her friend said she was scared.

These are children who have nothing about them to ID them as trans and of course it's drivel anyway.

I think there is a lot of fucked up stuff circulating on various social media.

The keeness to use MH issues in children as a major argument to support a view- often lying about it- is massively awful and worrying.

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 24/03/2021 12:08

@gardenbird48

The persecution narrative is likely to be damaging to the mental health of already vulnerable children as well.

The widely repeated claims that trans people are suffering escalating amount of hate and violence (although this is not backed up by any figures other than the hate crime reporting which seems to be extremely questionable and subjective) create an atmosphere where they can perceive persecution at every turn.

The person I know, white, well-off family, female has said that they feel unsafe on the street, not because they are female but because they are trans. The difficulty is that I don't think any random stranger would have any inkling that this person is trans. They dress in a baggy, casual way with short hair but just look like a young girl wearing baggy clothes.

I think this person genuinely has this perception of their interaction of the world but when the trans 'supporters' constantly tell trans people that we all hate them and want them dead that is not surprising. Any glance on the street, or snippy interaction in the shop is going to be interpreted as being against them because they are trans.

It is most likely that any attention this person gets (I don't think there has been any actual incidents, just maybe the odd glance) attracts any attention through being obviously female, not their identity.

It occurred to me that if a non-hormone/surgery transwoman dressed exactly as I am dressed today (hair tied back, a bit of concealer, jumper, jeans, trainers), precisely zero people would be able to see that they identified as a woman.

DS2 looks like a girl from the back. He gets more comments when people think he's a girl. Think "oi oi love" and whistling, than he does when he turns around/speaks and they realise he's a boy with long hair/think he's trans. He has been called a transgender bitch at school though, usually after boys have made lewd comments in the toilets/told him he should be in the girls.

Disclaimer. He isn't trans, although he spent half his younger years in a "dress" (one of my old going out tops). He's a boy with long hair.

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 24/03/2021 12:03

When my medication made me suicidal the GP changed it to something else. Not prescribed me more drugs to counteract the drugs.

Indeed. Plus this young person who had been put on puberty blockers had to be put on a hormone that regulates normal puberty in girls. I'm finding it all a bit mind boggling.

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 24/03/2021 11:59

[quote TheRabbitOfCaerbannog]There's an article in The Telegraph today which is a fairly balanced review of puberty blockers. It comes with a subsection about a mother and her trans son (ftm). In it she says that puberty blockers made her child feel suicidal, but that they also saved his life. I was taken aback that this young person was given yet more drugs to balance out the impact of the puberty blockers:

‘Alex told me he was suicidal, a feeling that was to last for several weeks,’ she says. When Alex repeated thoughts of self-harm to a counsellor at the Tavistock, Lisa was ‘horrified’. Alex was put on ‘suicide watch’ at school. ‘Eventually, we understood his low mood was due to the puberty blockers, so he was given a small dose of oestrogen that eliminated the feelings after a couple of months. No one is arguing that blockers are without risk, or that they have no side effects, but they were necessary for my son: they saved his life.’

www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/truth-parent-transitioning-teen/[/quote]
Interesting. When my medication made me suicidal the GP changed it to something else. Not prescribed me more drugs to counteract the drugs.

NecessaryScene1 · 24/03/2021 11:57

I've got an anti-tiger rock I keep on my desk at all times. It's certainly saved my life.

gardenbird48 · 24/03/2021 11:45

No one is arguing that blockers are without risk, or that they have no side effects, but they were necessary for my son: they saved his life.’

The article gives no insight into how she thinks they saved her child’s life. The only information we are given is that pbs caused the child to be suicidal. What is the missing piece of information that could make sense of those two points?