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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Organ donation Scotland doesn't need to know what sex their donors are !

93 replies

334bu · 21/03/2021 10:57

mobile.twitter.com/mbmpolicy/status/1372918446099431427

Surely it is sometimes necessary to know what sex the organ donor is?

OP posts:
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 21/03/2021 12:34

@Doyoumind

I’m sure that it’s very obvious to a medical professional whether an adult is male or female when presented with their naked body.

Exactly. This really isn't something to get wound up about.

I have no doubt that the relevant clinicians (those involved in the care of the donor patient, retrieval team, transplant to recipient team) know the appropriate information.

Depending on whether there is general support for persuading people to an opt-out, it might be relevant to gather some demographic information to identify whether particular groups might benefit from more nuanced information.

There are lots of interesting narrative reviews published in this area. Sex and gender (as in socialised roles) play into who donates, who receives, and who has a better record in adhering to post-operative clinical care etc.

It is important to know who is declining to donate if it's an area of substantial need for some intersecting demographics.

gardenbird48 · 21/03/2021 12:32

@radbadger

FGS they are going to get the medical bit right.

Sometimes I think these Feminist chats on Mumsnet are unhinged

Yes I would hope they will get that bit right but at what point in the process does that information become available to them?

How much time is wasted on the administrative processes that lead up to the point of actual medical evaluation where the team are told they have a female donor coming in and make appropriate initial arrangements and then are confronted with a male body?
Given that the accurate sex information is essential, why risk delays and wasted effort earlier in the process?

In what way is discussing the need for accurate sex information in a medical setting unhinged? The unhinged part is decision makers allowing the information to be deliberately obscured.

Thelnebriati · 21/03/2021 12:28

''...one study of more than 230,000 US organ donations from 1998 to 2012 showed that female-to-male kidney transplants were among the least likely to succeed.''
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28596416/

''men who received a heart from a female rather than male donor, for example, had a 15% higher chance of dying within the next five years.''
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19808369/

Doyoumind · 21/03/2021 12:28

I’m sure that it’s very obvious to a medical professional whether an adult is male or female when presented with their naked body.

Exactly. This really isn't something to get wound up about.

Thelnebriati · 21/03/2021 12:27

Women are more likely to donate an organ and less likely to receive one.
www.bbc.com/future/article/20180730-why-more-women-donate-organs-than-men

Soontobe60 · 21/03/2021 12:26

@Thelnebriati

Wasting time and resources on testing for something as basic as sex is not good practice. Your sex should be accurately recorded on your birth certificate and medical records.
Have you actually read all the tests that have to get done before a donation can proceed? Sex will be very obvious to a medic!
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 21/03/2021 12:25

Sex (and the donor - recipient combination) can make a difference to longevity of a transplant, how well a graft takes, antigenic response etc. The clinical papers above can offer some insight.

Soontobe60 · 21/03/2021 12:24

@ClimbingCancelled

So a person who has used the opt-in form and selects transgender and has an organ which is absolutely critical to saving someone's life - there's no way anyone knows what sex the donor is. Sex is critical to organ transplant. The NHS will waste hours or days trying to find out the sex of the donor - by which the recipient - quite possibly a child - will have died. Inclusivity trumps death. Good one.
Ok, so say they present as male and they’ve selected transgender. They will have breaststroke of have scars from breast removal. They will have a hysterectomy scar or have a uterus and ovaries that show up on an MRI, they have labia and a vagina, or a penis and scars from the skin grafts used to create it. I’m sure that it’s very obvious to a medical professional whether an adult is male or female when presented with their naked body.
radbadger · 21/03/2021 12:24

FGS they are going to get the medical bit right.

Sometimes I think these Feminist chats on Mumsnet are unhinged

minniemoocher · 21/03/2021 12:23

I'm not sure if sex makes a difference. The only person I know to have a lung transplant (female) knows her donor was a 19 year old male. Not everything has sex/gender relevance. Hearts etc do need to be tissue matched and to fit the cavity but the latter applies more to children

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 21/03/2021 12:20

Why is sex critical to the transplant process?

Take a look at the papers here as it's an interesting area - use the boxes on the left to filter out animal studies, zero in on solid organ transplant or bone marrow etc. You might also want to distinguish living donor transplants etc. - it is truly fascinating.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=sex+organ+transplant

Thelnebriati · 21/03/2021 12:20

Wasting time and resources on testing for something as basic as sex is not good practice.
Your sex should be accurately recorded on your birth certificate and medical records.

Doyoumind · 21/03/2021 12:19

Come on. That organ will be to be removed by a team of HCPs and there will have been a great many tests and checks. The sex of the donor won't be in doubt. I'm GC but this isn't going to leads to deaths. They don't just whip out an organ and plonk it in someone only to find out a detailed history of who it came from later.

Thelnebriati · 21/03/2021 12:19

Zig4zag
Sex is critical for many times of medical treatment. Normal readings are often different for women and men.

''Normal range for hematocrit is different between the sexes and is approximately 45% to 52% for men and 37% to 48% for women.''
www.medicinenet.com/hematocrit/article.htm

Soontobe60 · 21/03/2021 12:19

[quote Thelnebriati]The wrong donation can kill the recipient.

www.carterbloodcare.org/the-significance-of-being-rh-negative-or-rh-positive/[/quote]
Which is why doctors do a whole host of tests.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 21/03/2021 12:17

I registered when it first went online (whenever that was) and don't remember the original questions but see it's now asking for gender. (I'm in England.)

www.organdonation.nhs.uk/register-your-decision/donate/?

gardenbird48 · 21/03/2021 12:17

@SweetPetrichor

I would assume that if a person has just died, or is near death, when it comes to organ donation they’d look at the medical records for the donor. And if someone is transgender, it will be pretty obvious because I’m sure that those medical details will be recorded in medical records.

I think this is a non-issue.

Many GP surgeries and NHS record keeping allow people to create a new record under a new name and sex marker and erase all links to previous medical records.

Incidentally the GMC also allows GPs to change their sex marker on their register entry so it is possible for a GP to entirely conceal their sex from their patients (and this is happening in certain practices).

They also issue new National Insurance numbers for this group which creates a completely new record for an individual. I’m not sure what they do about existing records of NI contributions which are obviously essential for pension claim.

I previously assumed that contribution records were carried over into the new record but in the current climate we can’t assume anything sensible.

I would disagree strongly that this is a non issue. What is the reasoning or benefit behind obscuring essential information in an area where sex is absolutely essential information?

Zig4zag · 21/03/2021 12:15

@ClimbingCancelled

So a person who has used the opt-in form and selects transgender and has an organ which is absolutely critical to saving someone's life - there's no way anyone knows what sex the donor is. Sex is critical to organ transplant. The NHS will waste hours or days trying to find out the sex of the donor - by which the recipient - quite possibly a child - will have died. Inclusivity trumps death. Good one.
Why is sex critical to the transplant process?
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 21/03/2021 12:14

If the form will not age out then I will be interested in the response to your enquiry to the NHSBT service and whether or not they need to involve NHS ODR as a relevant 3rd party.

Thelnebriati · 21/03/2021 12:14

The wrong donation can kill the recipient.

www.carterbloodcare.org/the-significance-of-being-rh-negative-or-rh-positive/

Soontobe60 · 21/03/2021 12:12

@334bu

www.organdonationscotland.org/update This form won't age out . If sex not important then according to Data Protection they should not be asking for this information. Also what would be the administrative need for gender identity ? If not needed question shouldn't be Beng asked.
It isn’t asking for gender identity. It’s asking for gender. Yes, it should say sex, but I think it’s more relevant if it asks if you’re transgender as that may mean they check hormones etc to see if they are a suitable donor.
Zig4zag · 21/03/2021 12:10

Why does the sex matter?

SirSamuelVimes · 21/03/2021 12:09

@SweetPetrichor

I would assume that if a person has just died, or is near death, when it comes to organ donation they’d look at the medical records for the donor. And if someone is transgender, it will be pretty obvious because I’m sure that those medical details will be recorded in medical records.

I think this is a non-issue.

Only if that's person has had official, recorded medical intervention. If they have self id-d their sex on their id documents, changed name by deed poll and ordered Corsa sex hormones on line through dodgy doctors like gender gp, there won't be any medical records.

Of course there will also be those who have done no medical transition at all and have entirely male bodies. Hugely obvious that the body in front of them is male but if it's recorded as female, what happens then?

Soontobe60 · 21/03/2021 12:09

I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill. If a patient is being considered for organ donation they are most likely already in hospital, probably in ICU on a ventilator. The hospital has an extensive list of tests they have to do in order to assess suitably. They will also gave access to their medical records.
These tests will clearly show what sex the donor is, regardless of how they identify.

Thelnebriati · 21/03/2021 12:07

@SweetPetrichor

I would assume that if a person has just died, or is near death, when it comes to organ donation they’d look at the medical records for the donor. And if someone is transgender, it will be pretty obvious because I’m sure that those medical details will be recorded in medical records.

I think this is a non-issue.

You would think that, but its not how sex is recorded in places that have self ID.