Jolene, and other anti-feminist anthems

Is it anti feminist if it's about men though?

I always found the casualness of that grim, same as 'killer Queen' by. Well queen obviously!

I mean not my world and the 70s were a different time. I am sure that exploitation of young men on the gay scene happened. How much I don't know. Men who have exchanged sex for cash seem more open about it. I just don't know how different the dynamic is etc.

Holly came from Miami, F.L.A.
Hitch-hiked her way across the U.S.A.
Plucked her eyebrows on the way
Shaved her legs and then he was a she
She says, "Hey, babe
Take a walk on the wild side"
Said, "Hey, honey
Take a walk on the wild side".

Candy came from out on the Island
In the back room she was everybody's darling
But she never lost her head
Even when she was giving head.

I have to admit that neither I nor, apparently, the BBC knew what 'giving head' meant when the song was first released in the UK.

Wikipedia: Candy Says" is a song written by Lou Reed. It is one of four songs Lou Reed explicitly wrote in the voice of a female character, in the case of "Candy Says", a transgender woman, telling her experiences. Each would begin with the woman's name and then be followed by the verb "says." "Stephanie Says" was the first - later adapted into "Caroline Says" on his solo album Berlin.

I think I must have instinctively recoiled.

But the song is about Candy Darling- a real person- who Lou Reed was friends with.

Do you never read a novel with a female main character if it's written by a man

Don’t know why I cant quote this.

Sure, the first one that comes to mind is Thomas Hardy, but I think that’s because he did it so well.

What bugs me about Lou Reed and Candy Says, I mean, the character is his creation, he could have imagined her as anything, but he went with insecure, powerless, and shallow; she’s no Tess.

I’I’ve been on the lookout for this kind of thing ever since the fat girl got dumped for a man in William, It Was Really Nothing. Who says she doesn’t dream about anything, of course she does.

Speaking of Dolly Parton and Bob Dylan, there have been suspicions that the latter's recent song co-written with Robert Hunter) 'Jolene' might be intended as some sort of answer-song to Dolly's, though that doesn't get much shrift here: bob-dylan.org.uk/archives/1496

"There also seems to be a worry about why Dylan and/or Hunter chose the name Jolene. Of course they knew the Parton song was there, and, it has been argued, once a name reaches a certain level of significance then it can’t be used again. You can’t have another Jolene, it is said, any more than you can have another Maybelline, or Mrs. Robinson."

I like the way that the song Me and Bobby McGee seems to changes depending on the sex of the singer.

When the composer Kris Kristofferson, or any other man sings it, it's about Roberta McGee:

From the Kentucky coal mines to the California sun
Yeah, Bobby shared the secrets of my soul
Through all kinds of weather, through everything we done
Every night she kept me from the cold
One day up near Salinas, Lord, I let her slip away
Lookin' for the home I hope she finds.
Well, I'd trade all my tomorrows for one single yesterday
To be holdin' Bobby's body next to mine.

to Janis Joplin's about Robert:

From the Kentucky coal mines to the California sun
Yeah, Bobby shared the secrets of my soul
Through all kinds of weather, through everything we done
Yeah, Bobby baby kept me from the cold
One day up near Salinas, Lord, I let him slip away
Lookin' for the home I hope he finds.
Well, I'd trade all my tomorrows for one single yesterday
To be holdin' Bobby's body next to mine.

Robert always seems like such a wimp, somehow.

Anything For You by Evanescence.
'I'll believe all your lies, just pretend you love me.
Make believe, close your eyes, I'll be anything for you.'

The H.P Lovecraft re-write of Jolene is brilliant.

Thanks so much for this

wonderful

[quote mswales]@SusannaMorvern well if we're talking about Bruce what about Fire??!!
I LOVE this song and always feel a bit guilty singing it!

I'm driving in my car
I turn on the radio
I'm pulling you close
You just say no
You say you don't like it
But girl I know you're a liar
'Cause when we kiss
Ooooh, Fire

Late at night
I'm takin' you home
I say I wanna stay
You say you wanna be alone
You say you don't love me
Girl you can't hide your desire
'Cause when we kiss
Oh, Fire
Fire[/quote]
This one I can't hear now without remembering the

The H.P Lovecraft re-write of Jolene is brilliant

@MissBarbaryIs it the version a PP posted that you mean, (www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkbFeu6IZwY) or a different one?

Yes it's that one !

I'm still trying to fathom this The Internet song (Special Affair) if anyone knows it and has a view. It's bothered me for a while but this thread has had me listening to it loads again, I love it.

The H.P Lovecraft re-write of Jolene is brilliant.

@MissBarbary Is it the version a PP posted that you mean, ( ) or a different one?

Sexual healing- lol I'd never heard that last verse/bit. Bad

Ohhh if we're talking about women using men for money as being unfeminist (I suppose it is really) how about some Eartha Kitt?

'Old Fashioned Millionaire.' But I think some of her other stuff is kind of more feminist, I'd have to remind myself of it.

But (other than Reno) his songs can be so sexy.

LunaNorth I think that's the interpretation Bruce had in mind for Sad Eyes, and maybe she's with someone else or has something going on in her life. But if anyone said that to me in real life, however good looking, I would think arrogant sod or creepy weirdo. Bruce is a funny one, he can't dance and I got bored listening to him reading his boring autobiography (sorry Bruce).

Sorry if it’s been mentioned but Money Money Money by ABBA has just come on the radio.. good god those lyrics! I’d never thought about them before.

In my dreams I have a plan
If I got me a wealthy man
I wouldn't have to work at all, I'd fool around and have a ball

Thanks for ruining all these amazing songs OP

This is not remotely feminist, but I absolutely love it, made all the better as it is such an outrageous song and Blossom Dearie is a little old lady singing it :)

The lyrics to Jolene are just pure 'woman to woman' stuff...don't see the issue. It is not meant to be an ideological or social commentary.

Your post reminded me of the Millie Jackson Albums Caught Up and Still Caught Up, in which Millie alternates between the narrative voice of a cheated on wife, the wife’s friend and the "other woman”, she is mostly the other woman, as fitting Millie’s “bad girl” artist persona.

Primitive, dysfunctional, not remotely sisterly but raw and real.

I have never been in love with a married man (or woman), but I really appreciate Millie’s vicious, darkly funny narratives.

The lyrics to Jolene are just pure 'woman to woman' stuff...don't see the issue. It is not meant to be an ideological or social commentary.

Most Eagles songs give me the rage. There’s a nasty thread of misogyny running right through their back catalogue.

Lyin’ Eyes, Hotel California, Already Gone, Too Busy Being Fabulous, Take It Easy, Victim of Love...all make me cringe and roll my eyes.

I often ask DH if there was ever a point where Don Henley figured out he might have been the dickhead in his relationships...you know, Don, if you meet one twat, you’ve met a twat. If you only ever meet twats...

[quote BluebellsareBlue]@stealthpolarbear Harper Valley PTA. I love it!! [/quote]
The story was so good they made a film of it, too!

I wanna tell you all a story 'bout
A Harper Valley widowed wife
Who had a teenage daughter
Who attended Harper Valley Junior High
Well, her daughter came home one afternoon
And didn't even stop to play
And she said, "mom, I got a note here from the Harper Valley PTA"
Well, the note said, "Mrs. Johnson
You're wearin' your dresses way too high
It's reported you've been drinking
And a-running 'round with men and goin' wild
And we don't believe you oughta be a-bringin' up
Your little girl this way"
And it was signed by the Secretary
Harper Valley PTA
Well, it happened that the PTA was gonna meet
That very afternoon
And they were sure surprised
When Mrs. Johnson wore her miniskirt into the room
And as she walked up to the blackboard
I can still recall the words she had to say
She said, "I'd like to address this meeting of the Harper Valley PTA".
Well, there's Bobby Taylor sittin' there
And seven times he's asked me for a date
And Mrs. Taylor sure seems to use a lotta ice
Whenever he's away
And Mr. Baker can you tell us why
Your secretary had to leave this town?
And shouldn't widow Jones be told to keep
Her window shades all pulled completely down
Well, Mr. Harper couldn't be here
'Cause he stayed too long at Kelly's Bar again
And if you smell Shirley Thompson's breath
You'll find she's had a little nip of gin
And then you have the nerve to tell me
You think that as the mother I'm not fit
Well, this is just a little Peyton Place
And you're all Harper Valley hypocrites"
No, I wouldn't put you on because it really did
It happened just this way
The day my mama socked it to the Harper Valley PTA
The day my mama socked it to the Harper Valley PTA!

I give you Lady Nina by Marillion - a cheerful ditty about cheats and sex work, with a hint of domestic violence, alcoholism and pimping.

You pick out your credit cards and check into the night
A dozen tequilas and you're feeling all right
So you swim to the disco, out of your depth jaded gigolo
Your lucky charms are tarnished so you leave alone
But there's one place left to go before the taxi home
After all you've made your marks
One night you'll play Elizabeth Taylor
The next night you're Marilyn Monroe
Forever kissing frogs that think they're princes
Oh, Lady Nina, where did all the romance go?

Your little sister baby-sits, your husband picks you up at six
The make-up hides the bruises and the tears so they never show
'Cos your beauty is the only thing you've ever owned
It's the only way you've ever known to make your marks
You made your marks, you made your marks
We believe it's for real

Ich liebe dich, liebst du mich

Lady Nina, I'd love to take you home with me
But I love my wife and I love my family
I've got a good job, responsibilities
And I need to keep respect from society
I know you'll never act with me
I know that you're in love with me
So how do I compare to the sailors of the ships of the night?
Was I all right? Did you come tonight, Lady Nina?

You made your marks, you made your marks
Ebony flowers pinned to a velvet cushion in a red light
And Edith Piaf sings a lullaby for the night
Just making marks, just making marks
Just making marks, just making marks
You made your marks

Flat words on the page don’t tell the whole story. The tension towards the end of the song leaves me in no doubt the feeling’s mutual between them.

That’s interesting LunaNorth that’s almost exactly how my partner described it too.