Puberty Blockers - impact on the brain

@Shizuku

I know you love that Cornell study, and cite it repeatedly, but I’ve just gone through it and from what I can see, none of the underlying studies it cites look at children, adolescents, puberty or hormone blockers. You’re aware of that, right, that it’s completely irrelevant to the question that this thread poses?

You might at least try to engage in the topic at hand.

(Fully agreeing with you viv)

During puberty the brain effectively rewires itself - that is why teens perceive risk differently to adults, because their brain works differently

From bits of reading done before it's the development of the hippocampus that is important at overriding the impulsivity of the amygdala if I remember correctly.

So if normal puberty hormones for a specific xy or xx brain aren't being allowed to develop and exert their influence on the brain structure and development of certain areas of brain matter it does beg the question about what the impact of that is

I linked to dr Lisa Mosconi's research as she has looked at the xx brain from the POV of the chromosomes the cells have and the impact of oestrogen, progesterone and other hormones plus the deficit.

Posting to placemark, because I'm interested in those NICE results.

I was struck, when watching Stella Omalleys documentary, how the women who had transitioned young, all appeared quite immature and childlike.

The whole 'stop going on about it ya big transphobe, it's fiiiiiine' aspect of this is so chilling.

During puberty the brain effectively rewires itself - that is why teens perceive risk differently to adults, because their brain works differently.

I assume that if you don't complete the process of puberty then your brain remains in a juvenile state.

It would be nice to have some research into that, but, apparently it is better to just medicate people and hope for the best. I'd really like to see something published on the medical ethics of transgender care, because I have some questions.

Sheep have proved particularly valuable for research into neuro-degenerative diseases - for those who wish to know more, this is an interesting link conductscience.com/maze/sheep-as-an-animal-model/

The findings of Wojniusz et al. (2016) can be compared with those of a 2001 study in which 25 children treated for early puberty with triptorelin acetate were tested with the short form Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (Mul et al., 2001). In this longitudinal study, children took the IQ test before treatment and again after 2 years of treatment. It was found that their IQ dropped 7 points from 100 to 93. With 25 treated participants, this 7 point drop was significant (p = 0.002). In both studies the difference in the performance element of the test was greater than in the verbal element. The similarities between the findings of these two studies strengthens their reliability and increases the possibility that GnRHa treatment may have an adverse impact on cognitive functioning in children. This makes it yet more important for further research to be carried out into the effects GnRHas may have on cognitive performance in children

(From the article I linked above)

So far I’m working my way through this: www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00044/full

This also has the advantage that we’re more likely to see sex disaggregated data. We already know from the evidence presented by GIDS that no one apparently thought that while stunted growth is a positive for a male child who wishes to pass as a woman in later life, it’s completely the opposite for a female child who wishes to pass as a man. The precocious puberty studies I’ve found seem to be far more female oriented.

Fuck me - I think I’d actually have more intelligent conversations about this subject WITH a sheep than some people commenting on this thread

OP - it might also be worthwhile looking at the impact of Puberty blockers when used in precocious puberty? I think there's some research about girls dropping IQ points when taking blockers.

I know that's not the same scenario as blockers for people who want to transition, but some of the findings may still be relevant

What is most disturbing is the absolute denial of any negative effects of pbs, despite there being concrete evidence that there is. Even just a "I know there are risks but I feel the benefits outweigh them" would be better than the absolute total denial.

Just had a quick look at the papers in the review Shizuku mentions. Unfortunately can only access abstracts but so far they all seem poor quality retrospective observational studies and often fail to give pertinent detail like length of followup (the reviewers did not set any qualifying length of followup). A few used women as controls for transitioning men rather than non-transitioning men, but the majority did not offer any controls. Several explicitly note they are not representative samples and others were self selecting. Most look at older transitioning men. One which gave demographic data noted mostly white, divorced, having had kids. One was just male sex workers. Some were included did not address the question. A least three considered the same group of individuals.

Its something I wonder about too. The brain develops massively during puberty so delaying puberty must have some effect.

I went through early menopause after my hysterectomy and the sudden drop in estrogen had a terrible effect on my mental health and the long term effects aren't too promising either as unfortunately my GP is very anti HRT. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, least of all a confused prepubescent teenager.

I wonder why there hasn't been a proper study into this?

NICE have said that they are currently reviewing the existing available evidence on 'gender affirming hormones' and GnRH analogues for children and adolescents with gender dysphoria.

The results are due to be made available before the end of March via the NICE Evidence Search tool so that might be an interesting read.

I don't know if they have any access to research that is not currently in the public domain but I hope they do in light of the fact that current publicly available research doesn't seem to support the use of this treatment in children yet it is being prescribed anyway.

As an aside I did a quick search on Gender Dysphoria on the Evidence Search tool and came up with a study from 2016 that found a higher prevalence rate of ASD in children with Gender Dysphoria compared with the general population. Increasing amount of evidence suggests a co-occurrence between gender dysphoria and ASD (which we have discussed on here a number of times).

They concluded that further research is vital for educational and clinical purposes.

That research does not appear to have been done as far as I am aware - I wonder why....

OP, I have asked NICE to update me as soon as they have concluded their review and can let you know if they do get back to me - if not, a regular check on their evidence review tool would be good - they haven't got long if they were supposed to publish before the end of the month.

I have seen excerpts of the latest series of 'I Am Jazz'. Jazz going through their 4th (?) genital surgery, being in intense pain because the surgery has gone wrong, telling the doctor how they have lost sexual sensation, Jazz's mum complaining to other mums that she is worried Jazz isn't using their dialator properly and consistently, that she hands Jazz the dialator and says 'do it or I will do it myself' and that if Jazz doesn't use it properly at college and 'that thing seals up' she will 'wring her neck', Jazz clearly still with major mental health issues despite all of this to allow Jazz to 'be happy'.

What kind of life is that?

What we can all observe here is a lot of thrashing around using semantics, but obviously no information coming about the actual original question.

Yes.

Males who go on puberty blockers and then oestrogen are not males who have been through puberty.

Females who go on puberty blockers and then testosterone are not females who have been through puberty.

The sheep study is the best we have because none of the clinics anywhere around the world who have deliberately denied puberty of hundreds to thousands of children have bothered to research effects on IQ properly.

Logically, from what we know about puberty’s effects on maturity and decision making it stands to reason that denial of puberty would deny that same effect.

Puberty is considered an essential component of human development, unless you get referred to a gender clinic.

And are you worried that trans mens brains might be harmed by not being able to transition earlier in life?

In what way would their brains be harmed by being allowed to develop with normal puberty, a process extremely important for brain development?

It enables a trans boy's body to develop in a way that helps him overcome his gender dysphoria and live the live he feels is right for him

But feelings don't come into it if we are talking about the physical body. Yes, maybe there are trans people out there who know the full effects cross sex hormones, and have decided that all of the side effects, no matter how serious or debilitating, are worth it in order to be able to live 'as the opposite sex'.

But again, we are talking about children here, who cannot even begin to understand the long term effects of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones.

What percentage of trans men are killed by testosterone?

I don't know, has there been any studies on it? Have those studies accounted for age at which drugs started, whether the person went through any puberty, how large the cohorts are?

Triffiddealer

Have you come across anything to do with the long term brain impacts? Such as early dementia from lack of estrogen?

As an aside, I also found it interesting the way that the "sheep study" is derided by those who profess an interest in scientific papers.

There are reasons why sheep are used in experiments- there was a reason why they cloned Dolly.

Here's a link to the paper Op it might not be quite what you are looking for but it does reference other work which might be worth following up on

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5333793/?fbclid=IwAR2h0I3WI4GzJXefjuAMVEfDvy1WF9TJl4NuzM5U1NAfA3t2Sk8JrOzkOIo

This study on one male child found normal pubertal changes were reduced. But it's only one child.

The research hasn't been happening.

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2017.00528/full

Results: During the follow-up, white matter fractional anisotropy did not increase, compared to normal male puberty effects on the brain. After 22 months of pubertal suppression, operational memory dropped 9 points and remained stable after 28 months of follow-up.

Shizuku
You mean infertile people never went through puberty? Who knew?

Shame you didn't read the link.

Puberty is about so much more than fertility; but fertility is the point of puberty. Its how the human race reproduces and creates the next generation.
If you don't go through puberty your sexual organs dont develop and you are incapable of sexual pleasure. That's not an adulthood I'd wish on anyone.

Trans men have normal bone density:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

did you read all of this study? Even the part stating those using puberty blockers first had lower bone density? Which is a known issue as has been repeatedly pointed out to you from women who 15+ years ago used the drugs for precocious puberty who then went through normal puberty. They have consistently reported issues. I have also seen transmen reporting similar issues regarding joints and teeth that the group of those with precocious puberty.

Please start taking notice of what we are posting. It is harmful to minimize these issues.

Apologies for the derail OP.