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Original poster

Pronouns help please

68 replies

Springchickpea · 19/03/2021 17:09

I know this has been done to death, but I’ve just read a work email and seen that our director has put his pronouns on his email signature. We also have some new EDI training coming up, and we take a lot of advice from ‘inclusive employers’. I fear we are about to be asked to do pronouns and I want to be prepared.

I want to approach from the angle that highlighting minorities groups’ differences are damaging and I know that there are some academic research papers that highlight this but would like some help crafting my argument please. I want to stick to why this is bad for women, why I don’t want to advertise my sex, and to stay away from the other topic.

Can anyone help please? It just feels so depressing.

Fwiw, I am a regular MNetter, came for the baby stuff, stayed for the feminism but post a lot about children and family issues and don’t necessarily want my colleagues to read.

OP posts:
Shizuku · 19/03/2021 19:28

@Springchickpea

I’m not rejecting anyone else’s right to use their pronouns or express themselves any way they like *@Shizuku*

I am concerned that women may be discriminated against (consciously or unconsciously) and may also suffer ‘stereotype threat’ as a direct result of drawing attention to their female status. Ultimately my biological sex, gender, whatever, has no bearing on my ability to do my job and I don’t feel the need to highlight it.

You're in a pickle then, because if you don't put them, people may assume you are a bigot - not saying you are, but that may be the assumption.

You could put male pronouns maybe?

Original poster
Springchickpea · 19/03/2021 19:25

I’m not rejecting anyone else’s right to use their pronouns or express themselves any way they like @Shizuku

I am concerned that women may be discriminated against (consciously or unconsciously) and may also suffer ‘stereotype threat’ as a direct result of drawing attention to their female status. Ultimately my biological sex, gender, whatever, has no bearing on my ability to do my job and I don’t feel the need to highlight it.

OP posts:
Apileofballyhoo · 19/03/2021 19:21

@Shizuku

Trans people have a really difficult time - more than half experience family rejection, a fifth experience homelessness, they have often lost their friends and they have high unemployment rates.

So, as an act of support for a vulnerable minority, just pop you pronouns at the end of you email - you'll be fine, and you'll be doing a nice thing.

Can you post the links for these statistics, please @Shizuku? I'm very interested. Thank you.
Shizuku · 19/03/2021 19:19

Trans people have a really difficult time - more than half experience family rejection, a fifth experience homelessness, they have often lost their friends and they have high unemployment rates.

So, as an act of support for a vulnerable minority, just pop you pronouns at the end of you email - you'll be fine, and you'll be doing a nice thing.

Felyne · 19/03/2021 17:40

@Leafstamp

Must have been discussed before, but isn't one of the basic arguments (nothing to do with feminism) that what other people call you is not for you to prescribe. If you're there, then your name will suffice, if you're not there, then who cares as long as it's not derogatory?
Exactly what I think. If I'm not there I'm not going to care what you call me.
Leafstamp · 19/03/2021 17:36

Must have been discussed before, but isn't one of the basic arguments (nothing to do with feminism) that what other people call you is not for you to prescribe. If you're there, then your name will suffice, if you're not there, then who cares as long as it's not derogatory?

Original poster
Springchickpea · 19/03/2021 17:33

Thanks everyone, I knew I could count on MN to help arm me for this battle. I know that a colleague has asked why we ask new starters for gender, gender identity but not sex before as it was relevant to some EDI statistical analysis they were doing and the response was unsatisfactory.

OP posts:
UppityPuppity · 19/03/2021 17:31

This is very helpful: legalfeminist.org.uk/tag/pronouns/

Links in the article for references.

Pronoun annunciation is against GDPR. archive.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3717 Employers can only ask for relevant/lawful/valid information.

I’d prefer to announce my bra size...(sorry that bit isn’t helpful)

Apileofballyhoo · 19/03/2021 17:30

I don't know, in the interests of inclusiveness I might turn it around and say I'm uncomfortable with drawing attention to my pronouns because I feel non gendery on the inside. Or non binary or agender or whatever the buzz words are. Somerville who used to be on here (if you lurk, Somer I often think of you and your DC and hope all is well) told HR she was agender but didn't mind people using she/her to refer to her as those pronouns referred to her biological sex, not her gender. Something like that.

So I think there's a case to be made for saying it's not on to force people to reveal their preferred pronouns relating to their inner gender as it's a very personal thing and some people might be triggered by the pressure, or not be ready to come out or any number of mental health type things.

Beat them at their own game. Anyway I am agender but I don't want to be referred to as 'it' as it's dehumanizing.

PotholeHellhole · 19/03/2021 17:22

I'd honestly just tell him to stop being such a transphobic dipstick and that he had no right to pressure people to out themselves at his convenience instead of their own, but I'm feeling really angry at the world right now.

This is actually covered in the yogyakarta principles, because it used to be a basic. But the misogynists using trans rights as a disguise haven't read those, or ever thought about helping minority groups achieve employment parity with peers from a position of good will. Because to them it's about demonstrating their own superiority and dominance, not helping others!

LolaSmiles · 19/03/2021 17:21

Could you raise it from that angle, assuming they are taking the line that pronouns align with gender identity.

For example wanting people to declare pronouns puts someone who might have a different gender identity to their sex to reveal this when actually they were quite happy getting on with their work (if they put their gender ID pronouns to avoid misleading then work have effectively pushed them to out themselves), also for those with no gender identity there is the problem that a mandatory pronouns for gender ID is signing them up for an identity they don't have.

Even if you accept the premise that gender identity is a reason for mandatory pronouns, it's full of issues.

FeckTheMagicDragon · 19/03/2021 17:18

Studies have shown that women drawing even more attention to their sex are even more discriminated against- need to find the link

Leafstamp · 19/03/2021 17:16

Maybe some useful info here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4032097-Pronouns-at-work-where-do-I-stand-Advice

Original poster
Springchickpea · 19/03/2021 17:16

@LolaSmiles yes! That’s exactly it. They’re doing it because they are being “inclusive” but they haven’t considered it’s actually a really complicated issue

OP posts:
Original poster
Springchickpea · 19/03/2021 17:15

Thanks @Leafstamp I think I’m open to both options. One to say why I personally will not join, and another to ask the business to consider whether it is really within women's interests to highlight our sex.

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 19/03/2021 17:15

In a nutshell, regardless of what you think of the other issue an employer pushing staff to reveal more personal information than they are comfortable with isn't looking after their staff.

Leafstamp · 19/03/2021 17:14

Hi Spring

Good for you standing up to this. I'm no expert, but I think one thing I've seen suggested is asking to see the Equality Impact Assessment for this proposal.

Also, are you wanting to oppose it generally, or just not do it yourself? It may help the wiser ones here to help you depending on your answer to this.

Good luck with it all.

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