Page 7 | Consent for women

ErrolTheDragon · 19/03/2021 19:49

that my position on consent is the same as yours and suggest we all go and have a cup of tea.
Good idea.

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 19:47

I wasn’t even thinking about this until I read the opening post. I thought a public forum was a place to share viewpoints but considering MY VIEW ON CONSENT IS THE SAME AS EVERYONE’S, I didn’t see a reason to start a new one. You have the right to expect your consent/decision/preference etc will be respected but you don’t have the right to expect that nobody will try and have an entirely theoretical discussion with you. As far as I’m aware there’s no rule saying threads can’t go off topic. I’m accustomed to discussions where people bounce off each other and let the conversation evolve and can respectfully disagree without resorting to calling someone a troll but maybe unusual, I don’t know. Anyway this is just going round in circles now so I’ll just repeat A G A I N that my position on consent is the same as yours and suggest we all go and have a cup of tea.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/03/2021 19:32

It would have been a lot simpler and more constructive if you'd taken my suggestion way upthread and started your own thread, about exactly what you wanted to discuss, Ted. You could easily have done so, and you'd probably have found people interested in your topic who might not be on this thread.

PatriarchyChicken2021Champion · 19/03/2021 19:29

Oh @TedMullins the irony of your posts on this thread is almost painful.

Perhaps you should remind yourself of the actual OP and then reconsider your posts.

*A reminder:

You don't owe anyone your attention.

You have no obligation to 'include' anyone in your 'dating pool'.

Your sexual preferences are yours and yours alone.

Nobody has the right to shame you for your sexual preferences.

Nobody has the right to question your sexual preferences.

When it comes to sex and sexual preferences, nobody has the right to demand your attention, your consideration or your attraction.

Not ever*.

No fucking ifs and buts. None.

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 19:27

Right and others said I’m a troll and god knows what else, that I had a bad attitude. I’m not just going to let that lie because it’s simply not true. Given feminism is a sociological theory in and of itself I’m surprised so many people are simply not interested in conversations of that ilk but fair enough.

Original poster

ArabellaScott · 19/03/2021 19:24

If the responses had been in the vein of “think you might have misinterpreted what I mean by preferences, I see the point you’re making and it’s a discussion that’s worth having but probably needs a thread to itself

Several of us said exactly that, Ted.

OP posts:

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 19:22

@CousinKrispy

I don't think it's that people don't understand your point. It's that they don't want to discuss it here, on this thread.

Okay, fair enough. Some people have said that and that’s fine. If the responses had been in the vein of “think you might have misinterpreted what I mean by preferences, I see the point you’re making and it’s a discussion that’s worth having but probably needs a thread to itself” then this wouldn’t have blown up. But it didn’t take very long for inferences to eroding women’s boundaries and manipulation started popping up which really couldn’t be further from my stance on consent, so I wanted to clarify that. I think as I and my friends are very much the kind of people who welcome these sorts of conversations I’m always quite surprised when I meet people who aren’t interested in having them, which is my issue, I accept not everyone finds this stuff interesting. But I don’t appreciate suggestions that I’ve got some kind of agenda or I’m trolling or trying to deflect the issue. And as I said it’s really not a very welcoming attitude to women who want to have discussions about women’s rights and feminism but might hold a different viewpoint on something within that.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 19/03/2021 19:19

There is a limit to the amount of time anyone wants to spend having a discussion in which they have no interest, I'd suppose.

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 19:16

@lazylinguist

Preferences to me mean specific things within your sexuality, or things that could apply across all sexualities, like body types, race, hair colour, lifestyle etc. Again, I don’t think questioning the reasons these arise in a cultural context is a bad thing

'Not a bad thing' doesn't mean you should feel you have to do it. If somebody only wants to date short, blonde men with a Glaswegian accent and large feet, that's their business, as long as they don't go around saying "Ugh... tall dark-haired etc men are unattractive ".

it’s still your absolute right to refuse to have sex with anyone you don’t want to.

There shouldn't even be a situation where anyone has to 'refuse' to have sex with someone in the grounds of sexual preference, since the default assumption should always be that having sex with someone has to be an active, positive choice,not something you need to give a reason for not doing!

Yes, I agree. Perhaps refuse was the wrong word. It is your right NOT to choose to have sex with them would have been better.

CousinKrispy · 19/03/2021 19:15

I don't think it's that people don't understand your point. It's that they don't want to discuss it here, on this thread.

lazylinguist · 19/03/2021 19:13

Preferences to me mean specific things within your sexuality, or things that could apply across all sexualities, like body types, race, hair colour, lifestyle etc. Again, I don’t think questioning the reasons these arise in a cultural context is a bad thing

'Not a bad thing' doesn't mean you should feel you have to do it. If somebody only wants to date short, blonde men with a Glaswegian accent and large feet, that's their business, as long as they don't go around saying "Ugh... tall dark-haired etc men are unattractive ".

it’s still your absolute right to refuse to have sex with anyone you don’t want to.

There shouldn't even be a situation where anyone has to 'refuse' to have sex with someone in the grounds of sexual preference, since the default assumption should always be that having sex with someone has to be an active, positive choice,not something you need to give a reason for not doing!

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 19:11

@DaisiesandButtercups

Just for reference

“Sealioning is a type of trolling... that consists of pursuing people with persistent... or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity.”

Quote from Wikipedia hence the American spelling.

For more information on such tactics check out the Bunbury threads.

I love the bear link Pothole and will put it to the family for our monthly charitable donation.

Jesus fucking Christ. So anyone who wants a discussion or to examine some theoretical concepts is a troll? You do realise you’re just doing the online equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going LA LA LA IM NOT LISTENING, right? Feel free to search me and check my posting history. I think I’ve been quite consistent in my views while also contributing to threads on entirely unrelated topics. Seriously, I’d love an answer to the question of how you propose to help young women embrace feminism and learn about what it means for them and help empower them as you seem to want, when you can’t even have a discussion without undermining someone’s credibility? I am and always will be a feminist and as a journalist I’m aware of the impact of cultural sexism in the media and society and how pervasive it can be, I actively seek out various viewpoints and interpretations of feminism, but if I was younger and less well-informed the kind of responses I’ve had here could very well lead me to sticking two fingers up and saying ‘yeah you know what, people are right when they say feminism is bollocks’. I’m not going to do that because I know it isn’t bollocks, I think many here actually just don’t understand the point I was originally making or misinterpreted it. I respect people’s right to disagree with me, but it doesn’t seem like that goes two ways.

CousinKrispy · 19/03/2021 19:05

Awww. Bear carer!

DaisiesandButtercups · 19/03/2021 19:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MissBarbary · 19/03/2021 18:56

Thanks PotholeHellhole

PotholeHellhole · 19/03/2021 18:42

No-one is obliged to expand their sexual preferences.

If one should think someone else's dating pool is too narrow, surely the only person missing out is them. If one does feel concern for them, one would be better to take that energy and to devote it to a cause that is requesting outside assistance.

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 18:41

Okay, apologies, my error. I agree with you btw.

MissBarbary · 19/03/2021 18:41

Assuming this is aimed at me, I have never suggested anyone has the right to an explanation
Says Ted at 18.26

You, to person you’re on a date with: ‘I don’t want to sleep with anyone under 6ft’
Date person: ‘oh really, why’s that?’ Innocent conversation

Said Ted earlier this afternoon.

As pointed out the question is not "innocent conversation" It's asking for an explanation.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 19/03/2021 18:33

Actually, I know this may come as a surprise to you, but I wasn't talking either to or about you.

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 18:26

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Doesn't the rot set in when there is the suggestion that someone (anyone) has the right to require more from another person than what that person has offered?

Assuming this is aimed at me, I have never suggested anyone has the right to an explanation. I’ve expressed a pretty innocuous opinion that the background and societal context and influence of sexual preferences is interesting to explore in a general/abstract sense. That’s really not very controversial.

TedMullins · 19/03/2021 18:22

@MissBarbary

You say it's worth examining these things - I'm not sure why or it in what way it's beneficial. To whom and in what way is it worth it?

Isn't that veering right into Incel territory? I can't see that it's of any benefit to anyone other than someone who thinks they aren't getting enough opportunities to have sex.

Erm... academics specialising in sexual politics? They examine this stuff literally for a living. Feminists who write books on it? If it’s not worth examining do you think none of this stuff is of any value? Plenty of people hold an interest in the evolution of social norms and how they come about. Do you also think other topics are not worth any kind of dissection?

Also LOL at the “this is what young women are up against”... I am, literally, a young woman, I have read these boards for a few years now and posted on them before. I’ve never disagreed with the central point that declining to have sex with someone is your absolute right, whatever the reasons, but whether I misinterpreted the meaning of ‘preference’ or not, it’s frankly a bit bizarre how threatened people feel by someone starting a discussion about where preferences stem from. I honestly don’t care that you don’t like socialists or wouldn’t sleep with bisexuals, that’s your choice, crack on! I fully support your right to choose who has access to your body, as I’ve said from the start. But it’s not really a very winning strategy to bring more women round to your viewpoint to accuse someone interested in the topic of wilfully derailing a thread. I’m not even sure what your viewpoint is, to be honest, because I don’t disagree about anything that’s been said about consent, and all I’m getting here is that open discussion isn’t welcome, so... how exactly do you propose not to alienate these “young women” you’re concerned about if the moment they open a discussion you default to being defensive and condescending?

MissBarbary · 19/03/2021 17:57

You say it's worth examining these things - I'm not sure why or it in what way it's beneficial. To whom and in what way is it worth it?

Isn't that veering right into Incel territory? I can't see that it's of any benefit to anyone other than someone who thinks they aren't getting enough opportunities to have sex.

DaisiesandButtercups · 19/03/2021 17:54

I wholeheartedly support that campaign ArabellaScott, it is a very important campaign.

Yes AskingQuestionsAllTheTime it really does.

Original poster

ArabellaScott · 19/03/2021 17:53

Yes, good point, Asking.

OP posts:

MissBarbary · 19/03/2021 17:52

I've just added "committed Socialist" to my "I wouldn't shag you if we were the only people surviving after an apocalypse" list.

And I don't owe anyone an explanation why not.