Consent for women

Good grief @TedMullins give it a rest. Do you think everyone on this thread / board is of a certain age? I'm young, do my views not count because they don't match up with your experiences of being a young women. Even if someone's views are bigoted, what do you think you'll achieve by questioning that? For someone to suddenly think oh yes you're right maybe I should sleep with that (insert person/ category). If that's not coercion, I don't know what is. And if not to coerce them into changing their minds what exactly are you trying to achieve in a discussion around consent?

Is sex based sexual preference rooted in bigotry Ted?

It’s not supposed to help the black man get to sleep with you. But
yes, black men are totally within their rights to wonder why they are excluded from some people’s dating pool for being black, and white women can wonder why their friend says they won’t sleep with black men. People questioning it doesn’t mean they think black men have a right to sleep with anyone they want and claiming it does is just misunderstanding the whole concept of the theoretical

Black men can wonder in their own heads about why anyone wont sleep with them, that's their prerogative and I've no part in that.

If women of my acquaintance wonder in front of me why I wont sleep with someone I would find that rapey, if they did it behind my back I'd call it gossip.

If a theoretical discussion on such matters had to be done I think there are better places than here.

People who wear glasses,men with long hair or a particular sex?. Is sex based attraction bigoted Ted?

But that’s exactly my point - that some preferences are rooted in bigotry and discussing that is not coercive.

Yes it can be. Who is deciding what is "bigotry", exactly? I think we are mostly (not you, other pp) thinking about not wanting to have sex with a male if we are a lesbian, or a female if we are straight. Many people think that is "bigotry" if that person claims the gender identity of the opposite sex.

We all agree that no subject should be banned from being discussed amongst friends, theoretically. Does that cover it?

No, I don’t believe you have an inalienable right not to be asked a question. I do think everyone has an inalienable right to decide who they’ll have sex with. But discussing it is not the same as pressuring someone to change their mind.

In many contexts, yes it would be. It's coercive if the person being rejected asks you. It's loaded.

So that isn't taking it to it's logical conclusion. It is making a conceptual jump which links rejecting someone based on their biological sex to bigotry, which is well, a bit bigoted.

But you are spending literally hours arguing the toss over a minor technical point about sex based consent. Which very clearly communicates (in subtext if not in actual words) that you think that rejecting a trans person sexually is bigoted. You reinforce this by using rejecting someone sexually for their race as a comparator.

Because if you take it to it’s logical conclusion there are people out there who say things like ‘I’d never sleep with a black man, they’re all misogynist and they’re ugly’. I mean, fine, don’t sleep with black men, nobody wants to force anyone to have sex with people they don’t want. Like, literally nobody that I know or associate with wants to do that. But it IS absolutely worth looking at why and how that person’s aversion to black men as sexual partners came about. The goal is not to change their mind but look at the context and potential ingrained prejudices that led to that. But ultimately yes, when it comes to who you want to have sex with you can hold preferences that are racist. It’s about being aware of that, not changing it
Who would be doing the questioning?
If I say I would never sleep with a black man, who are you to question me as to why?
Or do you mean the black man should ask me? Very rapey.
Do you mean a theoretical discussion with your mates about why I wont sleep with a black man, that's just gossip.
Will this help the black man get to sleep with me? No.

Your vagina doesn't invalidate the point. I was largely speaking hypothetically. However it does make it less clear why you are going to such pains to argue that it should be ok to debate the parameters of consent.

No, I don’t believe you have an inalienable right not to be asked a question. I do think everyone has an inalienable right to decide who they’ll have sex with. But discussing it is not the same as pressuring someone to change their mind. You might think that’s a contradiction, I don’t.

As for wasting my time... I mean, it’s lockdown, I haven’t got much else on. I find this a really interesting portrait of the demographic on this board and I’m actually in my other group chat talking about and disseminating this very discussion. I have an idea of why my view is in the minority and I think it’s because as much as a certain cohort on here crows about young women and wanting to protect them, they actually largely view them with utter contempt and are very resistant to the evolution of societal norms and don’t actually want to engage in any kind of meaningful feminist activism or conversation

"You have the right to expect your consent/decision/preference etc will be respected but you don’t have the right to expect that nobody will try and have an entirely theoretical discussion with you."

@TedMullins So women shouldn't expect to have the right not to be questioned (oh sorry, have a theoretical discussion) as to why they don't want to fuck someone?

I do not owe anyone an explanation as to why I don't want to fuck someone (an individual or a category) and I think men who believe they have the right to question me and ask me to explain myself on that/have a theoretical discussion with me, can fuck off quite frankly.

And if a woman expected they have the right to ask me to explain myself, they can fuck off too. But let's be honest, women rarely do this. It's men that think they have that entitlement. Women (well the sensible kind) tend to instead start threads/discussions to remind everyone of our rights (but occasionally a woman does come along and say we can't expect men not to question us)

Don't you wonder ted why yours is the minority view on this thread?

I am concerned about your time being wasted, not mine. I can ignore you, after all, but you are spending all this time shouting down a well, and there must be more interesting ways you could occupy it.

And I can't offer you a debate with (say) Kermode and Andreski, or even Amis, to assuage your need for intellectual demolition. I suspect they they like me would find argument against opinion less entrancing than perhaps you do.

calling me an incel aren’t following the rules of a civilised debate

To be clear I did not call you an incel. I queried what merit there would be in research on "why, oh why won't someone have sex with me?" (I'm paraphrasing) which seems to me veering towards taking the incel view seriously and giving it credibility.

I am very interested and invested in consent and it being sacrosanct. That doesn’t mean you can’t ponder the nuances of why people arrive at their own personal preferences.

But that's the whole reason the OP started this thread: it doesn't matter what the reasons are precisely because consent sacrosanct. There is no need for justification.

Also isn’t “move away to another part of the internet, you’re the wrong kind of woman for this feminist board” the antithesis of everything feminism stands for? If you think I’m so woefully wrong and misinformed in my views then tell me why. If you believe it’s beneficial for women to think like you and not me, then give me some information to go away and consider and reevaluate my position. So far all I’m getting is baseless assumptions about my intentions, character and now even someone has decided I’m trans! It’s exasperating but also quite hilarious.

[quote AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]@TedMullins

You say are finding this thread exasperating, you disagree with those on it, the actual subject of it seems to be of no interest to you, and you clearly can't think why we won't behave as you think we should, or follow the rules you feel should be followed in debate. You also show every sign of feeling insulted and aggrieved.

For goodness' sake, why on earth are you putting yourself through this? there must be places on the internet which wouldn't cause you all this upset.

It is not possible to "win" an argument on the internet; it is far better to walk softly away from it. Life is too short, even for young women; they will become old soon enough, and regret all the hours they wasted.[/quote]
Actually I’d argue the people calling me a troll and an incel aren’t following the rules of a civilised debate. I am very interested and invested in consent and it being sacrosanct. That doesn’t mean you can’t ponder the nuances of why people arrive at their own personal preferences. I enjoy debates with people who can clearly set out their position without resorting to ad hominem attacks, which... well, I’m not the one doing that, am I?

Right and I’ve told you I disagree that it’s problematic in any and all contexts to ask. I just... don’t agree. You don’t have to agree with me either. People can go through life having different opinions on the nuances around elements of a topic while still agreeing on the central tenets without anyone dying.

@TedMullins

You say are finding this thread exasperating, you disagree with those on it, the actual subject of it seems to be of no interest to you, and you clearly can't think why we won't behave as you think we should, or follow the rules you feel should be followed in debate. You also show every sign of feeling insulted and aggrieved.

For goodness' sake, why on earth are you putting yourself through this? there must be places on the internet which wouldn't cause you all this upset.

It is not possible to "win" an argument on the internet; it is far better to walk softly away from it. Life is too short, even for young women; they will become old soon enough, and regret all the hours they wasted.