GC and the extreme right etc etc

I am not an uncritical support of the IOC in any way. Their treatment of sports which stand up to them on and demand genuinely effective doping control, for example, has been just as appalling as some of their treatment of women's sports in general an many women in particular.

Where I disagree is that the rules in place for the potential inclusion of trans people in the Olympics from 2004 onwards have not created the doomsday scenario that many claim.

Further, the key group which has benefitted has been trans men who for whatever reason, compete in men's sports in considerably higher numbers.

It's also not the only successful trans inclusive policy in sport.

On the other hand, the American bills forcing people to go through genital examination and the scandalously poor treatment of cis women like Caster Semenya do precisely nothing to 'protect' or 'enhance' women's sport and everything to increase barriers to access, especially for black athletes who are disproportionally targeted.

So much of American identity politics has arisen out of U.S consumer culture and neo-liberalism.

There is a whiff of neocolonialism about all this. Americans have always had a generally poor understanding of the world beyond their own country, but there is a cultural arrogance at play here, an entrenched refusal to even consider that the political landscape and issues in another country might be different. It’s also ironic, because the lack of tradition and understanding of left-wing politics in the US means that people who think they are left wing, but are actually liberal individualists and who have more in common with the right than most of us do, simply fail to recognise left-wing materialist positions

Absolutely!

And the biggest irony is that is now the contemporary British left who have adopted this wholeheartedly. U.K based chatrooms ( & media) over-taken with discussion of U.S style identity politics and American cultural issues. The left in Britain have traditionally hated all things American.

The whole 'left-righ't trope has become an utterless tiresome cliche.

I can't believe there are lies coming from TRAs. I'm shocked and surprised at this behaviour.

which seek to abolish transition healthcare and trans civil rights

1. Everyone already has equal civil rights. They cannot be abolished, nor is anyone seeking to abolish them.

2. If banning the use of puberty blockers in children is " abolishing transition healthcare", then yes!

That YouGov poll is very interesting, @ereshkigalangcleg

So of all groups (forgive me, I'm ignoring conservatives and leavers, as they disagreed on every point) Men think that allowing transwomen into women's spaces may put women and girls at risk of harm.

Methinks TRAs are targeting the wrong audience in the UK, tbh.

Cultural imperialism, innit.

Interesting thread about John Money, Russell Reid and the idea that gender identity issues should be addressed by medical rather than psychiatric means: threadreaderapp.com/thread/1224766770805866499.html

There is a whiff of neocolonialism about all this. Americans have always had a generally poor understanding of the world beyond their own country, but there is a cultural arrogance at play here, an entrenched refusal to even consider that the political landscape and issues in another country might be different. It’s also ironic, because the lack of tradition and understanding of left-wing politics in the US means that people who think they are left wing, but are actually liberal individualists and who have more in common with the right than most of us do, simply fail to recognise left-wing materialist positions.

This.

YouGov polling last summer showed the following:

That people in the U.K. are in the majority happy to let live and say an MTF trans person is a woman if they identify as such.

But what gives the lie to this is that:

They don't support the changes to the GRA trans activists want

They don't support (across the board in all demographic groups) males in female sports

They don't support pre op MTF trans people in women's toilets or changing rooms.

This shows that their understanding of "transgender woman" is outdated and they think they would have had genital surgery.

d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-07-16/Transgender%20attitudes%20summary-01.png

To my knowledge FPFW have never commissioned a poll.

OK thank you.

"bigotryisbad" seems to want to attack a source when it's completely irrelevant anyway. The polling would appear to be independent and stand by itself.

Julie has GC sympathies in that she thinks like many people that gender identity ideology is ludicrous. She's not a "GC feminist".

That article...
It struggles to find any links and hides this with obfuscation and very large images
It's hilarious they start with Julie Burchill and the publisher she had for a day, which they at least admit Julie dumped when she found out her connections

What poor mad mean Julie has to do with GC feminism I don't know
Julie has been Julie plowing her own special furrow for many years with her particular brand of shouty contrarianism
And are they aware she's a rabid Zionist? Who dedicated a book to Benjamin Netanyahu? And calls herself a philo-semite?

Agree with those saying bigotryisbad has engaged in an interesting way and brought up interesting points. And PermanentTemporary gave lots of good food for thought.

It showed how difficult it is when nobody trusts institutions any more - bigotryisbad won’t trust a link from FairPlay, while I and probably many others won’t trust a link from Stonewall which is especially sad as I used to love them. It makes it really hard to engage without poring over mounds of “evidence” from both sides, which I don’t have time for. I am so glad the ONS case got settled as it did as if people fill it out in good faith we will finally have some real data. I couldn’t understand why trans people were not clamouring for accuracy - being able to say “we are X thousand strong in the UK, we must have better services” would be very powerful. I know there will be psychic pain in ticking the “sex” box in a way that causes dysphoria but it could unlock so much more understanding and ultimately support, I was surprised that the demand for it did not come from trans people. Anyway, hopefully some good data we all trust will come of it.

This is based on Pink News' misrepresentation of the situation tut tut

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-rowling-right-that-hormones-or-surgery-not-required-for-legal-gender-change

A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law.

This is what she said.

JK Rowling did not state SRS was ever a prerequisite to getting a GRC. Neither did the post you quoted.

Wasn't it that she pointed out it wasn't, and TRA adjacent media sources claimed she was lying and had to then climb down when it was refuted?

Nice revision of history, but we've come to expect it.

I guess in theory they could have commissioned it, but even then I don't see it as a big deal, unless you want to get into detail as to what is wrong with the specifc questions asked.

To my knowledge FPFW have never commissioned a poll.

They have referred to the YouGov and Populus polls, commissioned by others.

The Scottish independence commentator Wings Over Scotland has also commissioned polls which have questions about this issue over the border.

1. Children are, in general, not permitted to make permanent changes to their bodies in the U.K. due to gender dysphoria; the treatments are limited to social transition and puberty blockers which can be reversed. Surgery is far more common for cis children wishing to have surgery for cosmetic reasons than trans young people who virtually all have to wait until they are 18 plus.
Evidence that puberty blockers are reversible?

2. There is decades of evidence as to the efficacy and safety of the treatment. The first "children" who received these treatments are now in their 40s and 50s. The success rates remain over 99%. Those stories aren't reported in the U.K. but have been subject to rigorous international studies, all of which are supportive.
Evidence please? In the recent Keira Bell case the Tavistock was unable to produce evidence of success.

3. The U.K. has been a backwards irrelevance to trans healthcare for decades, failing to follow best practice for patient care and demanding that trans people (of all ages) join unbelievably long waiting lists and traverse impossible hurdles.
Who decides best practice? What are the impossible hurdles? And are you aware that there are a limited number of gender specialists, hence long waiting lists?

4. Before you say "so what" realise that the current waiting lists for urgent care for trans people can extend to 25+ years.
Oh really? Show your workings.

5. This isn't the only national shame that I think we're facing right now but it's one of the bigger ones. Britain has become the 'control group' for the rest of the world where proper treatment isn't offered and trans people are subjected to abuse, violence and terrible standards of care.
Citations required.

Trying to paint Fair Play for Women as anti-trans and unreputable is just laughable. They’ve just won a Judicial Review against the ONS Forbes pointing out their illegal policy on sex, they’re currently involved in another JR regarding prison policy. They’ve had seats at the table at the IOC and recent World Rugby policy reviews.
Discreditable, bigoted groups do not get that kind of access so your assertions are totally false and quite honestly, bigoted.

The argument against trans ideology is massive and not everyone will support all parts of it. Some will have concerns about males in sport, others safeguarding for children and vulnerable adults, some will be violently transphobic and some want the right to believe in the fact you can’t change sex. There will be overlaps but I’d say it’s a spectrum of ideas some which are strongly rejected by feminists and some which are passionate causes.

As someone says unthread there are vicious right wingers with an agenda, there are concerned mums, campaigning feminists, medical professionals, mainstream MPs and most of the general public who all occupy a place on this spectrum- it can’t be stated that anyone who disagrees that TWAW/TMAM wants healthcare withheld or physical harm committed. I’ve never seen anyone here call for violence for example. Hell, even on these boards there’s a range of views it’s just convenient for some posters to pretend all people who question TRA ideology are identikit. It’s bollocks.

Well yes, it is a breath of fresh air that @bigotryisbad is at least making some point and arguments on the thread, rather than just plopping in to say how bigoted everyone is and then leaving again

Yes it is, i was just thinking that

This debate is raging in the US right now and they're facing the same questions as the U.K. Trans equality in sports? Over 70% support.

77% of Americans believe in angels.

1 in 4 Americans believe the sun revolves around the Earth

Only 60 percent of Americans believe in evolution

Only 44 percent of Americans are confident that vaccines don’t cause autism

In the UK people would have no trouble letting transwomen and transmen continue playing sports in their correct sex category. We would have a problem with letting a male play in women's rugby or women's 100m sprint. A female who identifies as a transman could continue to compete with women so long as there's no doping with testosteone.