GC and the extreme right etc etc

I'm not going to respond to this further as it's dragging a long way away from the point.

That's handy isn't it, it means you don't have to answer questions about Semenya's performance advantage.

Apologies. A straw man, not a dog whistle.

@bigotryisbad But what universal human rights are we talking about? Not the right to marry, obviously, or the right to a family life, so which ones? You don't have to go into massive detail.

it's understandable that a narrative that claims the greatest threat women face is not poverty, inequality, racism, or the resurgence of anti-feminist conservative ideals, but trans people

Classic dog whistle here from jj.

The greatest threat to women is not trans people. But changing the legal definition of the word women to include men who demand it is probably the biggest threat to women’s rights in the west.

And Bigotry’s comments about the Swedish study are simply astonishing.

I will quote the conclusion the study came to, for the avoidance of doubt:

”Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. ”

and

” Crime after sex reassignment, however, has not previously been studied. In this study, male-to-female individuals had a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female controls but not compared to male controls. This suggests that the sex reassignment procedure neither increased nor decreased the risk for criminal offending in male-to-females. “

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/

At that point; I don't know what counts as 'being a woman' but being AFAB, growing up as a girl and living your life as a woman seems like a fairly solid start. I certainly do not think it'd be right for me to tell someone they're "not a woman" without a lot more thought than this thread seems to be prepared to give.

I'm not going to respond to this further as it's dragging a long way away from the point.

There would be much less conflict if the appropriation and colonisation of women's spaces, services and sports was not the goal. Cannot think of another movement which has sought to move in and redefine reality, then impose it on other traditionally marginalised groups - and then have the nerve to call it a movement for human rights.

This 👆

Redefining reality is central to this ideology

Transwomen can't possibly share the same patterns of criminality as other males because it doesn't suit the narrative, so just lie about it.
Transwomen can't be bigger, stronger, faster etc than all females because it doesn't fit the narrative, so just lie about it.
Transwomen aren't members of the male sex because it doesn't suit the narrative , so just lie about it an throw in some totally irrelevant data about people with VSD and pretend there could be more than two sexes.

just for the protection of trans people's existing rights

First from that image:
It's case by case, not person by person

And whereas you may be wanting to "just protect existing rights", that's very much not what the loudest trans advocates are calling for

They are violently and aggressively pushing for the erasure of any exceptions allowed under the EA, such as provision of single sex places, allowed on the basis of the protected characteristic sex.

It's disingenuous to pretend this isn't happening

And as I've pointed out before, one of the other exceptions allowed under the EA, is for insurance contracts based on risk based assessments
The patriarchy soon draws a line if you start to effect their profits

There's also been a new case since I last looked, apparently; it doesn't seem to change anything I've said.

www.echr.coe.int/Documents/FS_Gender_identity_eng.pdf

All this 'far right' crap. Personally I am disgusted at how many 'left wing kind and compassionate' people are willing to throw women under the bus in order to be on 'the right side of history'.

What it boils down to is really one question: do women have a right to certain single sex spaces and provision? Yes or no?

If you'd like to address something I've actually said; go ahead.

You said Casta Semenya is a Cis woman, but CS has XY chromosomes. The case is very sad and it must be hard for CS when they were raised female, but they don't have a human right to compete in women's sport.

A key point there being that unless by doing so they would be unable to provide that service to other service users, if other service users who should reasonably expect a single sex space or service to be exactly that and are unable to access it if it is not then trans people can be quite legally and legitimately be excluded.

In other words - trans people have no automatic right to access single sex facilities, spaces or services which are not designated for the SEX they are.

Oops, cross-posted. So what are they, briefly?

@bigotryisbad - you made a really intriguing point about repealing the GRA, could you respond to my question? I know there're a lot of people engaging with you but I don't think anyone wants trans people to lose any universal human rights, and I'm open to being convinced if you can cite consequences that I wasn't familiar with.

It's a law which, for all it's flaws, was put in place after the ECHR ruled that the U.K.'s excuses for not recognising trans people's right to exist from 1771 to 2004 were unacceptable.

If trans people can only' exist' with the GRA, then how come the majority of trans people don't have a GRC?

It's really interesting and the ECHR has some basic guides explaining the whole history of it.

If you'd like to address something I've actually said; go ahead.

As I have said, I'm not here to call for new rights; just for the protection of trans people's existing rights

For the avoidance of doubt, Caster Semenya is a cis woman, AFAB

I don't think this is known, or indeed, true. For the avoidance of doubt. Plus, it isn't right to call a person with a disorder of sex development "cis". It's completely crass and thoughtless, even by the standards of people using intersex conditions to prop up trans ideology.

For the avoidance of doubt, Caster Semenya is a cis woman, AFAB and I think any claims that she's somehow 'not valid' as a result of being forced to go through testing which her white competitors weren't is fundamentally grounded in racism.

Oh really?

Why do you want women to lose their right to fair participation in sport? Anyone can see that the trans women sportspeople currently competing in women's competitions have a physical advantage. Why should women accept that?

Just look at how much attention the UK far right had paid to grooming gangs

Let's look at the attention the U.K. left paid to grooming gangs.

From that linked page

On the evangelical and fundamentalist group the signatories include:

Heritage Foundation - who were profiled by Southern Poverty Law Centre's HateWatch for their anti-LGBT lobbying and close ties to the Trump Administration.

Here is a chat Sam Brinton had with the Heritage Foundation.

www.heritage.org/nuclear-energy/commentary/liberty-justice-all-conversation-sam-brinton-deep-isolation-and-the

By association Sam Brinton is a right wing fundamentalist.

That's interesting, @bigotryisbad - I'd assumed equal marriage rights had basically covered the shortfall in previous legislation. So which part of the right to a family life etc, specifically, would be affected?

"I have been subjected to unwarranted and invasive scrutiny of the most intimate and private details of my being … [which has] infringed on not only my rights as an athlete but also my fundamental and human rights including my rights to dignity and privacy."

Full story and other examples are here:
www.hrw.org/report/2020/12/04/theyre-chasing-us-away-sport/human-rights-violations-sex-testing-elite-women#

For the avoidance of doubt, Caster Semenya is a cis woman, AFAB and I think any claims that she's somehow 'not valid' as a result of being forced to go through testing which her white competitors weren't is fundamentally grounded in racism.