This never happens - man jailed for rape and attempted rape in women’s toilets

1. Testosterone has such a powerful effect upon the body that, not only can it make an adult female body look and sound male, it cannot be fully reversed.

2. The eyes and browline can show sex if they are visible. I figured this out when I realised I could still determine sex and identity of someone wearing a mask, a useful side-effect of having learned to match a bearded photo with a clean-shaven man or vice-versa. We have photo ids at work and I can check them without ever asking for the mask to be lowered, although I sometimes have to ask for hats to be removed.

3. I appreciate Buck's consideration for us and am very willing to fight for safe, single-occupant spaces so that transmen do not have to choose between alarming women or running the gauntlet of the gents.

[quote Shizuku]And this:

www.autostraddle.com/butch-please-butch-in-the-bathroom175366/[/quote]
so which do you think would be more helpful, opening up the womens toilets to any male that chooses, causing us all to be on our guard all the time or...

reinforce women's single sex spaces firmly so we can be comfortable in the knowledge that the person that on first glance looks like a man is most likely to be a woman and worth a second glance to confirm before we take action?

I think women of all body shapes and looks (only female though) have managed perfectly fine for years - I have some very masculine looking friends who have never had a problem, ever. There was a quite long thread on twitter with other women reflecting that view when Stonewall was trying to push your butch lesbian = problem as well Shiz

And this:

www.autostraddle.com/butch-please-butch-in-the-bathroom175366/

This may be relevant:

www.her.ie/life/watch-the-awful-moment-a-lesbian-is-kicked-out-of-a-bathroom-for-looking-butch-290594

Perhaps trans people could be kind and understanding, afterall they are the ones that are saying that they are not their sex observed at birth but would rather go by gender. They should campaign for their own facilities rather than just barging in and using what they want.

Just to add Freddy McConnell absolutely knows what sex they are, they've had a baby for gods sake, they are a mother!

"Of the well known trans men Buck Angel, Chaz Bono , Freddy McConnell, Chase Joynt and even Fox of Fox and Owl fame, for example do not look like anything other than men."

And in at least the case of Buck Angel, know this and do not use women's public lavatories. He gets called very unpleasant names by TRAs because of having said this.

Men choose entire careers based on being able to access vulnerable people - doctors, priests, sports coaches. They will take all sorts of risks, do all sorts of stupid shit to carry out crimes. We know this for a fact.

People who don't think that predatory males will take advantage of a culture of 'self id', where any man can declare himself to be a woman just on his say so and therefore have the right to be in women's spaces, is either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid. Maybe both.

If single-sex toilets are important to you I'm not convinced that the second part of that argument is a compelling one. Of the well known trans men Buck Angel, Chaz Bono , Freddy McConnell , Chase Joynt and even Fox of Fox and Owl fame, for example do not look like anything other than men.

In response to comment about it not being illegal. Long may penis reign. Oh no.. that's part of the problem

Spot on. I absolutely love cock. Don't want it rammed down my throat though.

Molly, this has already happened, there is a case currently in court where a trans woman sexually assaulted a woman. From Fairplay for Women:

"When it comes to sex crimes we see this very high male-type conviction pattern in the transgender prison population too. This means that despite identifying as women the male-born transgender prisoners retain their propensity for male-type crimes."

Another example is trans women saying they have a right to access women's refuges.

Men do and will use self id to access women's spaces. Trans women are welcome to fight to their rights but not whilst stepping all over mine, telling me what I can and can't say and denying my biological sex. You are right, I really don't like people who that - who would?!

Single sex spaces are not just for safety they are also for privacy, comfort and dignity but of course women are even worthy of that.

Should read:

Single sex spaces are not just for safety they are also for privacy, comfort and dignity but of course women are NOT even worthy of that.

Why do those in favour of opening up all female single sex places to males always come out with this butch women nonsense? My non stereotypical looking female friend (I won't describe her as butch because I think that is fucking insulting) has always without fail used female toilets and changing rooms as she is FEMALE and has never, ever had any issues doing so.

Let's think really, really hard here outed why would a man who isn't a TW want to access female spaces? What would make it easier for him to do so? Ah, yes self id, no need for any external or physical changes whatsoever, just utter the magic words if anyone so much as looks surprised.

Remove the boundaries, remove even the most basic and rudimentary levels of safeguarding but still blame women if they are raped or assaulted or excuse the men doing it with the trope of well, men will rape and attack you anyway, suck it up - weapons grade misogyny.

Single sex spaces are not just for safety they are also for privacy, comfort and dignity but of course women are even worthy of that.

So far, it is only the most brazen of men who go into women's spaces to attack. Lowering the 'hesitation' bar for men in general by making toilets mixed sex will only increase sex crimes against women.

What toilet should trans men and butch women use? Why is it easier for cis men to pretend to be trans women than trans men?

[quote 2021Vision]@MolyHolyGuacamole - what a ridiculous thing to say.

Yes a man can walk straight into a woman's toilet but they are taking a big risk as they are obviously a man so they may get challenged. A trans woman on the other hand is generally dressed is a woman's clothing i.e a skirt or dress and has makeup etc. I know some of them sport beards but let's park that one for now. They are therefore less likely to get noticed and therefore challenged entering the toilet.

Make no mistake there are plenty of men out there who will self id to access women's spaces. Anyone who denies has no respect and understanding of women.[/quote]
Your last comment is pure speculation. Unless you are psychic, you cannot know this.

As to the other stuff, as I said before, this wasn't a trans woman attacking another woman in the toilets, this was a man. So again, using the argument that men attack women in toilets as a reason to bar trans women from accessing those same toilets makes no sense. Because let's be honest, that's what this is about. That what it's always about on MN. It's about trans women and your dislike of them.

@MolyHolyGuacamole - what a ridiculous thing to say.

Yes a man can walk straight into a woman's toilet but they are taking a big risk as they are obviously a man so they may get challenged. A trans woman on the other hand is generally dressed is a woman's clothing i.e a skirt or dress and has makeup etc. I know some of them sport beards but let's park that one for now. They are therefore less likely to get noticed and therefore challenged entering the toilet.

Make no mistake there are plenty of men out there who will self id to access women's spaces. Anyone who denies has no respect and understanding of women.

@Shizuku

So are guns in some circumstances. But we have limits on where you can take them, and where they can be used.

Men don't need self id to attack women in toilets and changing rooms but it makes it a hell of a lot easier.

How do we know this person wasn't identifying as a woman when they/she/he went into the toilet? Have we assumed their gender?

But...it was a man, not a trans woman. The argument that Self ID will lead to men doing this doesn't make sense, because they don't need to self ID to be able to attack a women in the toilets.

First class response

Legal yes, ..but like guns, you can’t discharge them in a public place..