This never happens - man jailed for rape and attempted rape in women’s toilets

We know it's a man and not a trans woman, or this thread and its source would not be allowed to use the word 'man', surely?

Incidentally, what should be done to protect women from women who aren't trans in women's toilets:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2537637/Horrific-injuries-woman-attacked-woman-toilet-cubicle-wrongly-thinking-shed-affair-ex-boyfriend.html

@Shizuku

What is your definition of woman?

[quote Wondermule]@Shizuku

So you would be fine with able bodied people using disabled toilets? Because there’s nobody to police them?

I always considered it a matter of personal decency, but there you go...[/quote]
I'm fine with women using the women's toilets, and as trans women are women...

[quote Wondermule]@Shizuku

Your wishes require trans women to pretend they don't think they're women. That sounds as stupid to them as it would if someone said it to you.

They’re not women. I am. I don’t think it matters how it sounds, the only thing that matters is what is.[/quote]
They are women. I don't think it matters how that sounds to you - the only thing that matters is what is.

@Shizuku

So you would be fine with able bodied people using disabled toilets? Because there’s nobody to police them?

I always considered it a matter of personal decency, but there you go...

Unless you enact a law where everyone has to use the toilet that matches their birth certificate, in which case trans men use the women's toilet and you normalise it for people with beards and broken voices to be in there.

@Shizuku

Your wishes require trans women to pretend they don't think they're women. That sounds as stupid to them as it would if someone said it to you.

They’re not women. I am. I don’t think it matters how it sounds, the only thing that matters is what is.

Yeah! That's a bit I'm still trying to digest, bring to the light 😊

It's strange how stupid women are always assumed to be, really. I have never known a woman who was unable to tell a male person from a female person, even in poor light and at a distance, yet women are expected constantly to be deceived by men about what the man's sex is, at close quarters.

Even if it was illegal for trans women to use women's toilets, the same men can just pretend to be trans men. It's actually makes it even easier for them because they don't have to bother with make-up, wigs and feminine clothes - they can just go in as they are.

that's a new one - men pretending to be transmen - at least Shiz recognises that some men will go to any lengths to get at vulnerable women.

How about we just ban all male people from women's single sex facilities. I'm not too bothered where transmen go as long as if they wish to use the ladies, they don't mind a few eyebrows until we clock the unchangeable physical characteristics that mark them out as female.

Small men will be instantly identifiable as small men.

Shizuko is saying transwomen are entirely women, but maybe not female, but women nonetheless.

Apparently gender identity is something more than cleaving to sex stereotypes, it is innate and unmeasurable, but real and cannot be denied.

There was more, but I'm not sure I understood it, unraveled the internal inconsistencies, well enough to precis it.

Sorry 😐

Those posters declaring "any man can enter a sex segregated space anyway, so ..."

Are you saying we should abolish this segregation all together? Or should we just let TW enter? Where is the evidence that a TW is less of a risk than say, my DH?

It's strange that none of these rapists have been pretending to be FTM before really, isn't it?

Isn’t it depressing that we have to debate the chances of a rapist accessing our spaces to make our point, rather than just saying we want our own spaces and that is that 🙄 just making our wishes known should be enough.

[quote Shizuku]"So with Self ID any man is then able to enter female spaces."

But even without self ID, any man is able to enter female spaces, as the OP demonstrates.

Even if it was illegal for trans women to use women's toilets, the same men can just pretend to be trans men. It's actually makes it even easier for them because they don't have to bother with make-up, wigs and feminine clothes - they can just go in as they are.

And there is no shortage of predatory men who are small and could pass for trans men:

www.murdermiletours.com/blog/serial-killers-murderers-by-height[/quote]
What a ridiculous argument.

Women's single sex spaces are mandated by law in many cases; and provided that men walking into them is neither legally nor socially acceptable, as it was not during the twentieth century, a man who walked into one could and would be ejected when he was noticed, or even prevented from going in at all.

Self-ID would mean that any man could purport to be a woman entirely on his own say-so.

And that would mean that because any man might be or think himself to be female and self-ID as female, no man could be requested to leave a single-sex space reserved for the use of women -- in case he self-identified as female and his feelings would be hurt if this were questioned.

Thus if eg Kirk Reid or John Lambe or John Worboys or James Lloyd had happened to feel like finding a victim or two in a single-sex gym changing-room reserved for the use of women, he would have been able to claim he self-identified as a woman and go in if he chose. And preventing him from doing so or questioning his presence in that single-sex space would have been an act of transphobic hate.

Size, shape, secondary sexual characteristics or primary sexual characteristics are not relevant to someone's belief about their gender, Shizuku; it is transphobic to suggest that height is relevant.

"So with Self ID any man is then able to enter female spaces."

But even without self ID, any man is able to enter female spaces, as the OP demonstrates.

Even if it was illegal for trans women to use women's toilets, the same men can just pretend to be trans men. It's actually makes it even easier for them because they don't have to bother with make-up, wigs and feminine clothes - they can just go in as they are.

And there is no shortage of predatory men who are small and could pass for trans men:

www.murdermiletours.com/blog/serial-killers-murderers-by-height

It is Transphobic to ask that a trans-women pass. It is sexist and misogynistic to demand a performance of femininity.

So with Self ID any man is then able to enter female spaces. This renders all spaces mixed sex.

How can we tell which ones are safe? It’s naive to think predators won’t abuse this loophole.

Predators prey. safeguarding matters.

At least one in five women have been Sexually assaulted. Rape has such low prosecution rates as to be practically legal. Studies show when spaces become mixed sex there are ten times the number of assaults. So I worry we’ll see a rise in opportunistic crimes. Much harder to prosecute rape if the men are allowed to be there, as it becomes a “he said, she said”, rather than “well it looks pretty dodgy you were there, TBH.”

We already know predators particularly target the vulnerable, and will go to great lengths to gain access. Just ask the Scouts, the Catholic Church, schools. There’s a reason for DBS checks, and safeguarding.

A recent study has shown that reports of sexual incidents are at least 10 times more likely in mixed-sex changing rooms compared to single-sex changing rooms.

Not all males present a risk to females, but some do and it is not possible for women to reliably determine which individual males do present a risk when they first encounter a stranger.

Single sex spaces are necessary.

People who don't think that predatory males will take advantage of a culture of 'self id', where any man can declare himself to be a woman just on his say so and therefore have the right to be in women's spaces, is either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid. Maybe both.

We already know that they wouldn’t have to declare anything. Organisations just declare all toilets/changing rooms unisex rather than challenge anyone.

I think it would have been much more difficult to argue that the woman hadn’t agreed to meet him if the toilets were unisex.

In his case I suspect that the gents would be running the gauntlet of him if they were discourteous, to be fair.