Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Am I being dramatic?

134 replies

talkingdeadscot · 17/03/2021 12:31

DH and I have been having various discussions around the trans issue and what it means for the rights of women and girls. He's TWAW and I'm fiercely feminist.

He's actively campaigning for the removal of single sex spaces as per Stonewall. I'm a woman who wants to keep those spaces. He believes gender is more important than sex so in the long run single sex spaces are better for everyone.

For me, I've said why this isn't better for women, I've said I don't want to lose single sex provision but it makes no difference. He says we both have an ideology we believe in and neither of us will change their mind.I feel as though this is just another case of a man telling a woman what's best so in that regards it's no different to men denying women contraception or abortion. He says I'm being ridiculous and over dramatic, it's nothing like the same. Besides, plenty of women are happy without single sex spaces.

Am I being ridiculous or over dramatic?

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2021 18:53

Awww I'm disappointed! We would have handed him his arse on a silver platter. With a sprig of parsley.

Original poster
talkingdeadscot · 20/03/2021 15:13

Just a quick post script

I asked if he was so sure of his position if he would come on here and ask what the Mumsnet feminist board thinks. If he would come and defend his theories and maybe even have some of them challenged.

It won't surprise you to find out he won't.

Interesting feeling when you realise you've got more balls than your husband Grin

OP posts:
Original poster
talkingdeadscot · 19/03/2021 09:03

@CuriousaboutSamphire

You know you said earlier you wouldn't bother the Trans Widows? Would you at least reassure us that you'll pop in and have a chat if/when the seemingly inevitable happens?

I am sure they'll be happy(?!?!) to help.

I will, thanks.

I just need to learn finally that there is no reasoning with him on this issue and that even if he did say he'd changed his mind the damage is done.

Thank you all for confirming that I'm not going mad. Onwards and upwards Wink

OP posts:
Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 18/03/2021 17:59

[Here to support talkingdeadscot Flowers people using this thread to —write lies— debate should be ashamed of themselves.]

I’m so sorry talkingdeadscot that would have finished my relationship too. Many years ago DH was unthinkingly “TWAW” but as soon as I pointed out that I didn’t consent to a male person being in changing room with me he got it; if he hadn’t I would have been devastated.
Even bloody ScotGov relented & agreed that rape victims should be allowed to request a medical examiner of the same sex as them!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/03/2021 17:16

No. That's not what case-by-case means. That would be a "blanket policy", which is explicitly mentioned as discriminatory.

The EA 2010 specifically mentions as a possible legitimate aim women feeling safe and comfortable to speak about their rape, and says that it can be a proportionate means of achieving this to restrict a rape counsellor role to biological females, even where there is a GRC.

So no.

Bilquis · 18/03/2021 17:11

He's just sticking up for the rights of other men over women (and his wife) misogyny at its finest.
I couldnt be with someone like this as I just couldn't respect them due to their total lack of respect for what is meant to be their nearest and dearest, I.e. you, his wife

SabrinaMorningstar · 18/03/2021 17:06

It sounds as though he wants you to end the relationship. He's overly invested in all of this. I agree with PP about having an STD check, and taking steps to leave. There's no point having this argument with him over and over again.
fwiw I would not be with someone who was actively campaigning to take away my rights. That's not an ideological difference, I could overlook because it comes from such a misogynistic place.

Erkrie · 18/03/2021 17:01

Maybe start your own thread rather than hijacking one where a woman is asking for support about her marital issues? It seems rather disrespectful

A fair point. I will stop allowing myself to be dragged into a derailment.

Erkrie · 18/03/2021 17:00

If you want to remove rights that trans people have today - say it.

You have rights. Human rights. And protections for gender reassignment under the equality act. Not every groups rights belong to you.

It's not about "preserving single-sex spaces". No space is currently "single-sex" in the way you mean it (genitals at birth)

Yes there certainly are single sex services. My local refuge is one of them. Under single sex exemptions. Sorry to disappoint.

continuallyconflating · 18/03/2021 16:59

@persistentwoman

yeahbutnaw Maybe start your own thread rather than hijacking one where a woman is asking for support about her marital issues? It seems rather disrespectful.
Yes Sorry OP, it's easy to be distracted by bad faith arguments

@talkingdeadscot Flowers Flowers Flowers

2late2fixate · 18/03/2021 16:58

@yeahbutnaw

Once again, not removed. Trans people are legally permitted to use spaces according to their gender identity.

There are very few exceptions to this.

You're not "protecting women's spaces". You're campaigning to remove rights that trans people have today.

If that's the case then yes, I would campaign to remove that from them. They shouldn't have the right to female spaces.

Prisons, refuges, certain team and competitive sports, toilets, changing rooms and showers. These areas should be sex segregated and if we've taken a step too far and allow people of the opposite sex into any of these spaces then I will march to the ends of the Earth to remove that from them.

They can march for a third space and I would support that.

gardenbird48 · 18/03/2021 16:57

"The exclusion can only be applied on an individual case-by-case basis and must not form part of a blanket policy for the treatment of transsexual people (Equality Act 2010, Schedule 3, Part 7; Equality Act 2010, Schedule 23)"

on a case by case basis ie. ALL female only hospital wards, ALL female only toilets. ALL female only changing rooms - you get the picture...

btw, the text below is Schedule 3 Part 7 - which bit of this are you referring to? It doesn't mention discrimination based on Sex at all? Have you referenced the wrong section?

7.In its application to an education authority, section 29, so far as relating to age discrimination or religious or belief-related discrimination, does not apply to—

(a)the exercise of the authority's functions under section 17 of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 (provision of schools);

(b)the exercise of its functions under section 1 of that Act, section 2 of the Standards in Scotland's Schools etc. Act 2000 (asp 6) or section 4 or 5 of the Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Act 2004 (asp 4) (general responsibility for education) in so far as it relates to a matter specified in paragraph (a);

(c)the exercise of its functions under subsection (1) of section 50 of the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 (education of pupils in exceptional circumstances) in so far as it consists of making arrangements of the description referred to in subsection (2) of that section.

EdgeOfACoin · 18/03/2021 16:56

@persistentwoman

yeahbutnaw Maybe start your own thread rather than hijacking one where a woman is asking for support about her marital issues? It seems rather disrespectful.
I agree.
Erkrie · 18/03/2021 16:56

Thus there are refuges that do not accept transwomen in the UK. For exactly that reason.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 18/03/2021 16:55

@talkingdeadscot my apologies. I think we got side tracked by a similar poster on your last thread.

Again, my apologies!

MarkRuffaloCrumble · 18/03/2021 16:55

@BaseDrops

So he’s actively campaigning snd has recently become bisexual. And is telling his wife she is akin to a racist for wanting to only have female sex medical practitioners for intimate exams.

I wouldn’t be having unprotected sex with him. I wonder what the next reveal will be. Sorry OP he sucks. Throw the whole man away.

Yeah this! We’re all saying “he has no skin in the game” but maybe he does. Sounds like he wants to either BE or be with a TW, in which case you’re best off out of it.

I know it’s hard having to uproot yourself again after thinking you were settled with him, but I’d rather be alone than with a TRA!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 18/03/2021 16:54

"The exclusion can only be applied on an individual case-by-case basis and must not form part of a blanket policy for the treatment of transsexual people (Equality Act 2010, Schedule 3, Part 7; Equality Act 2010, Schedule 23) Yes, case by case, not person by person!

So a Rape Crisis centre can say no.

If you demand that we shoud be honest you have to be equally scrupulous!

Women are not fighting to take away anyone's rigts. They are fighting to retain their own!

Every example you have tried to give has been shown to be false. So why would anyone believe anything you have to say on the matter?

No space is currently "single-sex" in the way you mean it (genitals at birth) Like that! Not true!

continuallyconflating · 18/03/2021 16:54

@yeahbutnaw
The guidance issued by the UK government doesn't say in exceptional circumstances

(Unless you're indulging in sophistry and conflating exceptions with the much stronger exceptional)

It says:
very particular and limited circumstances

And lists these circumstances as:

Some competitive sport.
The provision of separate and single sex services.
Religious marriage services.
Insurance contracts.
Communal accommodation.

Got to love the insurance contracts
Them actuaries know there's no such thing as gender identity if it means they'll lose money Smile

Am I being dramatic?
Erkrie · 18/03/2021 16:54

No. That's not what case-by-case means. That would be a "blanket policy", which is explicitly mentioned as discriminatory

Yes. A single sex service can do exactly that.

persistentwoman · 18/03/2021 16:52

yeahbutnaw
Maybe start your own thread rather than hijacking one where a woman is asking for support about her marital issues? It seems rather disrespectful.

2late2fixate · 18/03/2021 16:51

I wouldn't be with someone who's morals and values were so far removed from my own. Simple as that.

yeahbutnaw · 18/03/2021 16:49

@Erkrie

"The exclusion can only be applied on an individual case-by-case basis and must not form part of a blanket policy for the treatment of transsexual people (Equality Act 2010, Schedule 3, Part 7; Equality Act 2010, Schedule 23)

So, for example, a women's refuge can be a single sex service. This is a case by case basis. Not an individual by individual basis.

No. That's not what case-by-case means. That would be a "blanket policy", which is explicitly mentioned as discriminatory.
yeahbutnaw · 18/03/2021 16:48

I'm just saying, be honest.

If you want to remove rights that trans people have today - say it. It's not about "preserving single-sex spaces". No space is currently "single-sex" in the way you mean it (genitals at birth)

Erkrie · 18/03/2021 16:47

"The exclusion can only be applied on an individual case-by-case basis and must not form part of a blanket policy for the treatment of transsexual people (Equality Act 2010, Schedule 3, Part 7; Equality Act 2010, Schedule 23)

So, for example, a women's refuge can be a single sex service. This is a case by case basis. Not an individual by individual basis.

yeahbutnaw · 18/03/2021 16:47

@Erkrie

Britain’s 2010 Equality Act protects trans people from discrimination in accessing single-sex spaces.

Those who are undergoing or who have had gender reassignment. Not just anyone who identifies as trans. And it still does not give an automatic right to single sex spaces. Don't be misleading now.

"A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."
Swipe left for the next trending thread