Is there any such thing as gender identity?

If you took anyone's brain out and put it in someone else body my guess is they would totally freak out and lose their marbles pretty quickly.

You can't take someone's brain out and put it in someone else's body so this is a pretty random line of speculation.

Incidentally the question what would you do if you were a man/woman for a day is not uncommon. Women usually say have a per standing up and a wank. Men usually say we wanking and playing with breasts.

I'm not sure what that tells us.

You said you would feel like a woman in a man's body - that's gender identity right there.

No she didn't, and what she described was body dysmorphia.

And I thought religious people were annoying in the 2000s...

If your brain was transplanted into a man's body, chances are you would feel like a woman in a man's body rather than a man. That's gender identity.

Bollocks. I'd feel like me. I've got no idea what other people feel like, let alone people of the opposite sex. I'm sure I'd have some body dysmorphia until I got used to it, but that wouldn't affect my sex in the slightest.

And if asked am I a man or a woman, I'd respond on the basis of the body I was in, as I do now. How else can I possibly respond?

Animal example, seeing as you lot like those:

You know that clownfish change sex right? Male clownfish turn into female clownfish? Well, they're not still male clownfish because of their inner "male gender identity".

[quote MinnieMous3]@Shizuku no. I am stating that I have lived for thirty years in a female body and that waking up with a penis and testicles wouldn’t feel entirely normal at first.[/quote]
You said you would feel like a woman in a man's body - that's gender identity right there.

‘If your brain was transplanted into a man's body, chances are you would feel like a woman in a man's body rather than a man. That's gender identity.’

There is no way of knowing this. I have had different bodies - child, adult, pregnant, menopausal. I didn’t feel like I was in the wrong body. Why should I suddenly feel like I am in the wrong body with a penis?

[quote MinnieMous3]@Shizuku

Is it just a huge coincidence then that upon becoming trans, most transwomen grow their hair long, start wearing ‘female’ clothing etc? And that most transmen cut their hair short and wear ‘male’ clothing? If gender identity was not related to sexist stereotypes, is that just a massive coincidence?[/quote]
Is it just a huge coincidence that a majority of cis women grow their hair long and wear ‘female’ clothing etc? And that most cis men cut their hair short and wear ‘male’ clothing? Or are we shocked that most trans people behave in exactly the same way as most cis people?

@Shizuku no. I am stating that I have lived for thirty years in a female body and that waking up with a penis and testicles wouldn’t feel entirely normal at first.

'If your brain was transplanted into a man's body, chances are you would feel like a woman in a man's body rather than a man. That's gender identity.'

No, that gets to the crux of the matter very well though. No I wouldn't. My sense of self is not impacted by my body or genetalia. Even less by the things you think I should like, do or think or be good/bad at because of them.

You are literally stating that you have a female gender identity.

@Shizuku

Is it just a huge coincidence then that upon becoming trans, most transwomen grow their hair long, start wearing ‘female’ clothing etc? And that most transmen cut their hair short and wear ‘male’ clothing? If gender identity was not related to sexist stereotypes, is that just a massive coincidence?

Well, at least that means you agree with the Judge that said that Maya Forstater's views were "not worthy of respect in democratic society".

If your brain was transplanted into a man's body, chances are you would feel like a woman in a man's body rather than a man. That's gender identity.

Yes because I have lived in a biologically female body my whole life and got used to it.

A transwoman has never inhabited a female body.

So that’s a non starter.

Hopefully they will be able to do that for trans kids one day which will enable them to go straight to cross-sex hormones at the start of puberty rather than delaying with blockers.

And, here again is the complete disregard for the increased health risks for female transitioners. Particularly in regards to puberty blockers.

When will mature adults start to understand that if they have transitioned as an adult, that they are effectively advocating for children to grow up to a life with a very high risk of not having a sex life that involves having an orgasm, other health risks, but also a life without children of their own.

It is quite significant that three high court judges made the decision unanimously that people under 15 cannot consent, and that people under 17 are unlikely to consent.

It has also been shown that the Tavistock, with the potential to draw on global research, could not provide any evidence that the benefits associated with puberty blockers outweigh the health risks. If it cannot withstand presentation as evidence to three high court judges, it is clear that the studies are not robust enough.

This cannot be said often enough.

If "yes" feels like the right answer to "are you a woman?" you're stating your gender identity.

If your brain was transplanted into a man's body, chances are you would feel like a woman in a man's body rather than a man. That's gender identity.

When boys are given a "sex change" shortly after birth and raised as girls with no knowledge of their male past, most still state that they feel male. That's gender identity:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1421517/

When a tomboy dresses and plays "like a boy", she doesn't think she actually is a boy. That's true for cis tomboys and trans tomboys. That's because her gender identity is female.

It's an entirely uncontroversial aspect of human identity - no serious scientists question its existence, they just study it's causes and effects, and look for its markers in brain scans etc.

www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/Pages/Gender-Identity-and-Gender-Confusion-In-Children.aspx

Also; before sexist stereotypes became discouraged and frowned upon, has anyone else noticed that people purporting to be trans only ever talked about wanting to dress in ‘women’s’ clothes, wear make up etc? They never mentioned some inner essence or anything along those lines. The spiritual ‘lady brain’ stuff only popped up once it became clear that sexist stereotypes do not a woman make.

We protect people from homophobic persecution regardless of whether or not they are actually gay. It is the behaviour of the perpetrator that is the issue not the victim.

I think the insistence that everyone must have a gender identity, even if they don't know it plays a very important function in the TRA worldview, because it normalises and de-pathologises the trans experience.

If a gender identity is something that is usually only experienced by trans people alongside gender dysphoria/euphoria, it leaves these phenomena open to being regarded as a disordered mental states in need of psychological intervention.

If a gender identity is the norm, it's a much smaller small conceptual leap to the idea that some people's gender identity doesn't fit the one usually associated with their sex. It removes gender dysphoria/euphoria from the realms of psychological disorder to just a variant of normal experience, and therefore makes it harder to present psychological intervention as the most appropriate way of responding to it.

Being trans does not show up in brain scans

Trauma does

Grief if we could identify trans with brain scans it would be useful

There are parallels. Pain is centrally mediated but peripherally initiated and can be charted. Not like acute pain but perhaps like a chronic pain schema emeshment model yes. I think identities and concepts of gender are probably a form of schema, and chronic pain is also an example of a schema.

If certain brain patterns case a female gender identity in most cases, it doesn't necessarily mean the same patterns will be seen in all cases.

I think I called this response a few pages ago

How do you know certain brain patterns cause the gender identity issues if not all trans people experience them?

Brains makes no odds anyway.

Maybe there are brain differences. Others can discuss this better than me and have discussed weaknesses in the studies upthread.

It doesn't matter though as this is about bodies.

Why would we separate the world based on brain scans of gender?

Especially as there are so many genders.

I also have no doubt that those who feel they have an internal sense of gender ID are being honest.

The dadjoke post was interesting.

Firstly you need to define woman before you ask the question. Most people in the world understand it's an adult human female (or their language equivalent).

Next bit is where it gets interesting.

Are you a woman (gender ID)?
No (I don't have a gender ID).
then you are not a woman.

Thus the category woman -encapsulating women's rights and all the issues for women and girls everywhere- is for people who feel like a woman inside.
People not of the group should not interfere with what the group see as their priorities and how to change things.

Thus women with no internal gender ID must 'sit down' when women's rights are discussed. Also non binary girls (fastest growing group) and so on.

Bingo! Lots of cunty people with troublesome views silenced.

Clever.

If certain brain patterns case a female gender identity in most cases, it doesn't necessarily mean the same patterns will be seen in all cases.

If they can find homosexuality in brain scans, would you like to see scans being used on asylum seekers who claim to be fleeing persecution for being gay?

www.irishtimes.com/news/study-finds-gay-brain-differences-1.824499