Identifying as a witch as a feminist statement

There are a few days left to watch the strange film The Love Witch on Channel 4

I would recommend that readers watch the film for a number of reasons

Firstly it is marketed as a subversive feminist film. I do not perceive it as either subversive or feminist. I would value the thoughts of others.

The reason for my recommendation is that the film is bursting with indicators of real, dangerous and abusive cults.

Themes and indicators that readers may recognise;

A Victorian themed tea room where everyone wears Victorian costumes “for ladies only” (where do I remember that from?)

A strategy of using elixirs, poisons and spiking drinks, a perverted “nourishment” not uncommon in the networks I research

Bizarre ideas about sex, gender and what it means to be a woman

The use of sex as a weapon, disguised as “women’s empowerment”

Bad art - tacky, poorly executed, garish paintings of topless women with unicorns and the like

The protagonist performs many meaningless rituals with enthusiasm and determination.

The main character visits an apothecary - the entrepreneurial element of “witchcraft” is apparent - the protagonist is part of a business network

She attempts to engineer meeting a man of her dream in a bizarre ritual involving urine and a used tampon (the use of body fluids in this way is standard in the networks I research)

The burlesque club where she meets Wiccans who run a variety of new age businesses including training in sex magic and awakening your inner goddess through erotic dance and developing skills to seduce and enslave men.

Seduction and recruitment of a police officer

Sacred theatre complete with a jester / fool character

A sleazy, rapey male cult leader

anyway, not at all feminist but marketed as such, much like the women’s empowerment courses I am so familiar with

Interested readers can check it out here

www.channel4.com/programmes/the-love-witch

That's not strictly true to say it hasn't happened, because there have been a number of prosecutions where the victims describe withcraft type ceremonies. The wearing of robes and inverted crosses, chanting, reading out of books like Crowley, death threats and abuse to the children forced to take part. There have been prosecutions of perpetrators where this evidence was given by the victims in court Kidwelly, Nottingham and others

These were not murders linked to witchcraft though were they?

Nottingham? I would appreciate further information about this case please

The Kidwelly case is very disturbing. I read the book written by one of the victims of Colin Batley, penned under the name Anabelle Forest with the assistance of ghost writer Katy Weitz

this is it

www.amazon.co.uk/Devil-Doorstep-Escape-Satanic-Cult-ebook/dp/B00HXG0C20/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=annabelle+forest&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1616182233&sr=8-1

Have you read it?

I cannot really recommend it as Katy Weitz's style of writing was, IMO, rather salacious and not very appropriate for an account of child sexual exploitation. I felt it did not respect the victim's privacy or dignity.

I read the book for research purposes as many skeptical friends were very concerned about the salacious news reporting around the case and the fact that some elements reported in the press read more like the many false accounts of satanic sexual abuse than accounts of real abuse. It was a very depressing read and I felt terrible for the victim.

I cannot remember everything about the book, but I do recall that the female victim "Annabelle Forest" (not her real name) said that she did not know about many of the crimes that happened to other victims and only read about them in the press.

Annabelle's account of sexual abuse and exploitation was, sadly, quite familiar to me, although not in relation to followers of Crowley's system Thelema, (although Crowley was an abusive cult leader IMO) but more in relation to neo-tantric and pseudo-shamanic cults that use the cover of spirituality to sexually exploit people, including children, in pornography, blackmail and prostitution.

The ancient Egyptian elements are found in Thelema but are also very commonly found in the many abusive cults with their roots in the Russian criminal network / cult Ashram Shambala, aka The Russian Academy of Happiness aka School of Cleopatra aka many other names.

The Russian press has reported on this network extensively but not so much since the leader was sentenced to 11 years in a Siberian penal colony for sexual and financial abuse of his followers and for drug offences.

This network has many businesses involving prostitution (usually under the guise of "tantra" and various models of "body psychotherapy" reiki and "energy therapy", often involving intimate massage, blackmail, slavery - they are extremely dangerous.

It was my impression, having read the book, that Batley was a vile paedophile and pimp who groomed and oppressed the women and children in his orbit by using brainwashing techniques (coercive control leading to the Stockholm syndrome) threats of supernatural punishments and claims of being someone in possession of ancient wisdom.

The jury is out on whether he truly believed in Thelema as a system. It seems more likely to me that if he was invovled in any cultic system (I think it is fairly likely that he just used Liber Al as a tome to scare his victims) it would be one asscociated with Ashram Shamabla who operate covertly in many countries internationally.

I would need access to the money trail to find out more and I am not a cop and do not have access to that information.

I find it very difficult to understand how you have come to the conclusion that have done.

Mostly from my reading Thomas Potts account in his The Wonderful Discoverie of Witches in the Countie of Lancaster (first published in 1613)

That's my interpretation of it, others might not agree, but it was an interesting case all the same

hoodathunkit

That's not strictly true to say it hasn't happened, because there have been a number of prosecutions where the victims describe withcraft type ceremonies. The wearing of robes and inverted crosses, chanting, reading out of books like Crowley, death threats and abuse to the children forced to take part. There have been prosecutions of perpetrators where this evidence was given by the victims in court

Kidwelly, Nottingham and others

@5.25 in the above video is an interview with the notoriously abusive therapist Valerie Sinason, a deranged woman who claims that children are sacrificed by satanic cults all over the UK.

Sinason was involved in the appalling abuses against Carol Felstead that have been widely reported in the press.

Richard Hoskins a real expert on ritualistic murders has also spoken out about false allegations of satanic ritual abuse

Here's a video of Dr Hoskins sharing his concerns about Operation Conifer

Yes worldwide but there have also been a few cases in the UK linked to witchcraft. A torso was found in the Thames in 2001, still unidentified and thought to be linked to witchcraft

The "Adam" case was not linked to witchcraft though was it?

It was a ritualistic killing but not linked to witchcraft, unless your definition of "witchcraft" is a cult that murders children

Richard Hoskins has written widely about the case and is a long time campaigner against the torture and murder of children falsely accused of witchcraft

Have you read Thomas Potts first hand account of the trial?
no

We have to remember that language used at the time can have different meaning now.

Of course

We hear evidence ar the trial, for example, of creatures entering properties, that these animals speak and are party to the conspiracy. We might think "oh thats ridiculous, how can anyone believe that,"

Of course we would think that. It is the most reasonable and likely thing to think, especially given that children are prone to telling all kinds of fantastical tales.

There have been cases in Africa where villagers were burned to death following witchcraft allegations by small children. Either the children were telling the truth or they were telling fantastic tales typical of young children. The most likely answer is usually the right one surely?

but in the trial and in the context of the times, they are described as having the "likeness" of animals. In witchcraft ceremonies, and even in old folk festivals, adults did and do dress up as animals, wear the skins of animals.

Er, Okay, but of course a 9 year old child would know the difference between a real animal and a person in a mask, obviously

This can be totally innocent, Morris Dancing for example, but back then it could mean it was also used to to intimidate the more vulnerable. I believe everyone knew that of course they were not real "animal demons" but that it was some kind of intimidation being used to silence ot confuse the victims and so the court.

Or it could be a little girl from a hideously deprived, unloving background enjoying being the centre of attention from a crowd of adults who, for the first time in her life, made her feel important?

Also that these crimes were indeed "devilish practices". Language like that is still used today in newspaper headlines to describe our most serious crimes and especially against children

I think it most likely that any crimes committed were mundane and the result of extreme poverty, deprivation, a lack of education and competition over limited resources.

I find it very difficult to understand how you have come to the conclusion that have done.

Yes worldwide but there have also been a few cases in the UK linked to witchcraft. A torso was found in the Thames in 2001, still unidentified and thought to be linked to witchcraft

Within the context of times, I believe they were given a fair and very open trial. I believe something happened and it was something very serious. I also believe it involved the ritual abuse of children. Which still happens today in many parts the world, and children still die in "withcraft" ceremonies

I would love to know more about these "witchcraft" ceremonies that children still die in today.

The only deaths of this kind that I know about are of the poor children murdered by their communities who falsely accuse the children of Kindoke or of being witches.

There the cases of some Muti murders in some parts of Africa. There are also rare examples of "Tantriks" and "shamans" murdering children in Asia.

Is that what you mean?

So Wicca is a religion created in the 1940s by an eccentric male nudist whose doctrines were a synchretic mix and blend of appropriated material from various sources including ancient Egyptian texts and grimoires, mostly I believe from the Key of Solomon the King.

It seems to me that Wicca has represented itself as a religion of ancient wisdom for modern times, however it is a very new religious movement.

Personally I find the plethora of consumerist goods and businesses associated with Wicca to be dubious.

I can relate to the elements of being in nature and finding nature deeply spiritual, but I don't feel the need to dress up in robes, chant, attend naked rituals or accumulate a load of new age items in order to experience nature as transformational and divine.

When our society and sex based rights are being undermined by a tidal wave of magical thinking and supernatural beliefs it makes no senes to me to identify as a witch.

Whoops, sorry thanks for the link

hoodathunkit

I've seen those before. I really like Simon Armitage, hes quite well known here as having an interest in local history (North of England) and has an interesting take on it. He doesn't take sides and is sympathetic to Jennet Device.

I'm very interested in north of England local history myself, and have researched this case for many years.

Are you seriously suggesting that the court was right to give uncritical credence to the testimony of a 9 year old girl, Jennet Device?

Within the context of times, I believe they were given a fair and very open trial. I believe something happened and it was something very serious. I also believe it involved the ritual abuse of children. Which still happens today in many parts the world, and children still die in "withcraft" ceremonies

Have you read Thomas Potts first hand account of the trial? We have to remember that language used at the time can have different meaning now. We hear evidence ar the trial, for example, of creatures entering properties, that these animals speak and are party to the conspiracy. We might think "oh thats ridiculous, how can anyone believe that," but in the trial and in the context of the times, they are described as having the "likeness" of animals. In witchcraft ceremonies, and even in old folk festivals, adults did and do dress up as animals, wear the skins of animals. This can be totally innocent, Morris Dancing for example, but back then it could mean it was also used to to intimidate the more vulnerable. I believe everyone knew that of course they were not real "animal demons" but that it was some kind of intimidation being used to silence ot confuse the victims and so the court. Also that these crimes were indeed "devilish practices". Language like that is still used today in newspaper headlines to describe our most serious crimes and especially against children

I've read many text from the 17th century and I believe this is what was happening

This is also fabulous

Haxan ; Witchcraft Through the Ages 1922

I would recommend this video about the truth of modern witchcraft

Jennet Device (age 9) bravely gave testimony in court against her own family, who were accused of, among other things,
Incest
Child abuse
Murder/conspiracy to commit murder
Poisoning neighbours livestock
"Bondage" (slavery)
Racketeering
Aggressive begging

Are you seriously suggesting that the court was right to give uncritical credence to the testimony of a 9 year old girl, Jennet Device?

Jennet denounced her mother and all of her family and most of her neighbours as witches. Ten people were hanged because of Jennet's accusations and the resulting snowballing of accusations and counter accusations amongst the impoverished community where Jennet grew up.

There is an excellent documentary about the trials here, that makes use of the court documents and contains verbatim accounts of some of the the accusations.

The documentary includes the testimony of another child, a young boy, who at a subsequent witch trial claimed to have been turned into a horse by a witch who had originally taken the form of a dog.

I have no idea whether Jennet was a victim of incest and sexual abuse, however the fact that she accused pretty much her entire community of being witches and murderers suggests that any allegations that she made should be treated with skepticism.

Also, none of Jennet's victims identified as witches. Witchcraft was something you were accused of, not some that people "identified as"

same position, couldn't be any worse than being hanged.

[quote Worldgonecrazy]@TeiTetua absolutely! I attended a talk on the Pendle ‘witches’ and they were the poorest of the poor, absolutely reviled and desperate people.

I often think of that talk when I see the television shows where we are invited to laugh at the less fortunate and be grateful we are not the object of derision.[/quote]
A really interesting story, poor little Jennet sold all her family down the river and later found herself in the worst position.
I saw it on amazon Prime. Took out a month free trial Well worth a watch.

Sorry, I meant if you practice witchcraft you are a witch, if you don't you're whatever else you do to define yourself.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but don't see the problem in being a witch and a feminist.
I saw a documentary on Pendle Witches as this is close to where I live.
That was a reult of whichever king it was in Scotland and religion.
Gosh, I remember a lot, better watch it again
Do we face the same problems today?

I would like to join the Terry Pratchett coven here, identifying as Tiffany Aching please. I'd like to sit at the feet of Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg, but I expect they'd prefer me to make myself useful instead.

I've been asked many times if I'm a witch and I prefer to keep them guessing, whether friend or stranger.

My shop is a weird mix of esoteric related items, vintage and Gothic stuff including clothes and I do tarot cards. I spend alot of time explaining I regard them as psychological tools as we have control of our destiny, and the cards just help identify patterns and archetypes that may be useful dependent on the motivation of a reading.

I'm a Goth - I only felt able to embrace my desired choices when I got into my 40s and experienced a very complex mid-life crisis post divorce. I wear alot of black and I have a woollen witchy hat. I wear a reversed pentagram as it represents the feminine. I'm often asked if I worship Satan - firm nope - because he doesn't exist for me. In fact I don't worship anything because I don't like the concept of worship at all - rather unhealthy tbh.

I know a bit about alot of things and never stop learning.

What is witchcraft? It encompasses a whole range of normal stuff - herbalism (not my bag), connecting with nature, spell casting - which is in line with new age "positive thinking" and intention work. The concept of witchcraft comes from mainly women doing things that they felt were helpful but other people didn't like / understand due to their own beliefs and prejudices.

Witch as we understand it today is being used as a symbol of empowerment, acknowledging that women are feared and revered and also a marketing tool to flog lots of pretty clothes and trinkets.

Each to their own - and harm ye none

Is identifying as witch a feminist thing? I don't see why not - it shows solidarity with persecuted women who were misunderstood, or eccentric, or too big for their boots, and the recognition that because some people are resentful of women in general, they will never tire of finding ways to make our lives more difficult.

If anyone can identify as anything and be validated for it, why not identify as a witch? It's a great opener at social gatherings if you want interesting conversations all night

Devlesko
If you practice witchcraft then you are a witch
If you don't you aren't you choose whatever occupation you do have

Yes Devlesko, and it's a from me too

I think a typical accused witch was a poor widow who lived in a derelict cottage at the end of the village, all alone except for a half-starved cat. She'd be on the edge of insanity from malnutrition and loneliness, and the children would come and taunt her and throw stones, and she'd shout at them. Then if one of the children got ill and died, as children so often did then, of course she'd be blamed

That's not how the victims of the Pendle Witches, or the Lancaster Assizes, saw it. For all we might think of an early 17th century court, it was actually very sympathetic toward a child witness. See the image I posted

Jennet Device (age 9) bravely gave testimony in court against her own family, who were accused of, among other things,
Incest
Child abuse
Murder/conspiracy to commit murder
Poisoning neighbours livestock
"Bondage" (slavery)
Racketeering
Aggressive begging

Another practising Pagan here. Plenty of male witches out there too, and some victims of the witch trials were men (admittedly not the majority). I was in a Dianic group for a time, now on my tod. I’m a gender-quizzical feminist, not to say feeling a bit confused by the world these days.