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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

CCTV and lighting, the government response.

35 replies

MiniTheMinx · 16/03/2021 10:35

More street lighting and CCTV, is that what we want?

More light pollution, and more surveillance. We are already the most watched nation, and already suffering the effects of light pollution. My thinking is this, that no amount of surveillance, or light, or punishment for crimes committed is going to address the causes of male violence. It seems to me that the government believes that leaving aside the structural and cultural roots of male violence is ok, they are want to play about looking serious in protecting women.

Am I wrong, is greater surveillance and lighting going to make us safe? does the end justify the means? even if the end result is a small reduction in risk?

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Scout2016 · 17/03/2021 23:07

I don't know if this is the case ABC is referring to but it is a man who attacked a woman in the street and seems to have avoided a custodial sentence as he was the sole earner in the family. Sent on a sex offender's course instead.
www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/oldham-councillor-urges-review-after-20183218

NiceGerbil · 17/03/2021 22:38

Indecent exposure and grabbing your bum are illegal I believe.

Although I think a man got off a sex offence by arguing it wasn't sexually motivated...

Also kerb crawling is illegal but I'm not sure what that law actually says.

I think that the things that happen to women are seen as tricky because the laws were originally written by men for men.

EG if group of men shout sexually explicit comments at a woman is that illegal? What if she's under 16, does that change things?

I once had two older boys sitting on the bus behind me whispering we're going to rape you, follow you home and rape you, and we'll know where you live. Is that illegal? Feels like it ought to be to me.

Firstly women and girls don't know what's legal and what isn't, secondly we are given a strong message to deal with it ourselves, also many know the police aren't interested...

I know a lot of posters don't like hate crime law and I understand why. When they trialled it in Nottingham though they got more reports, almost all crimes, including stuff like attempted rape. It will make women feel more confident in coming forward. If the police follow through...

NiceGerbil · 17/03/2021 22:31

Everyone seen this?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56435550

Sex added to hate crime crime in England soon. And they do specify sex. Well they say sex and gender and although hate crime already has gender in it, putting it like that does highlight that they don't mean the same thing, which is good.

I'm very surprised by this move.

MiniTheMinx · 17/03/2021 21:48

Kinsters yes definitely. But then we will get told that 'harassment' is ill defined and therefore can't be prosecuted. Isn't it the case that sexual harassment is not a criminal offence?

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Kinsters · 17/03/2021 07:55

It would only help if they used this increases CCTV and surveillance to prosecute the crimes that occur every day - harassment, assault, flashing. Until they take these crimes seriously nothing will change.

ChameleonClara · 17/03/2021 07:30

They want to be seen to do something without actually doing anything. If they wanted to tackle this they would invest in crime prevention, detection, prosecution and victim support.

The measures proposed are bullshit.

BarefootByMoonlight · 17/03/2021 07:28

Frankly failing to enforce the law as it stands in rape, sexual assault, stalking, revenge porn, up skirting etc means many if not most women in public suffering serious harm including serious annoyance, inconvenience and loss of amenity.

I’d like to see a number of Ministers in the dock charged by their own Policing Bill for failing to protect us.

Not falling all over themselves about a tweet from a party that can’t even protect their own female shortlists from men.

exwhyzed · 16/03/2021 21:11

There was a good discussion along these lines on LBC with Shelagh Fogarty this afternoon.

You could hear Shelagh getting increasingly cross and frustrated at the realisation coming over her as she spoke to various callers that nothing is likely to change soon.

NiceGerbil · 16/03/2021 21:06

There is no appetite to tackle the root causes as it might inconvenience men/ make them feel bad/ or got at.

MiniTheMinx · 16/03/2021 21:03

TheBuffster and AbsintheFriends yes that's it, teenage boys do not listen to the uncool teachers and parents when they so desperately want to be accepted by their peers. My own son has said in the past that although his friends say things he disagrees with he just feels too scared to speak up. Boys/men have the need to try and prove themselves and to fit in with other men. Presumably it comes down to the threat of violence. And yes I think we are on a losing battle when violence against women is normalised through porn and computer games.

peak2021 if only he would pack up and leave. Although I would like to see more women in top jobs I feel very angry at right wing women.

I don't think anything much will change in terms of prosecutions. Most rapes occur in women's own homes or other private spaces where the attacker is known to the woman. Using CCTV seems to imply that if we don't believe women to tell the truth we can fob them off with the idea that any random attack at night will at least be proven to have happened because "we saw it"

TheABC bloody hell, where did you read that? I agree its a joke. Its because these bastard privileged louse secretly have sympathy with these men. 10 years for breaking up a statue of a "great white man" 5 years for raping a woman. The onus on women to prove they never gave consent is greater than the man's to prove consent was given. Consent is assumed. It becomes meaningless because the legal system has made it meaningless. But apparently better lighting will fix the issue.

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TheABC · 16/03/2021 20:36

We need to overhaul the justice system. Rape prosecution and sentencing is a joke - I read about a convicted rapist getting off scot-free yesterday because "he was at risk of losing his job!". Judges simply don't take rape seriously.

CongealedCrags · 16/03/2021 20:33

I'd rather they spent the money prosecuting rapists. And jailing murderers. And educating magistrates.

TheBuffster · 16/03/2021 20:27

I was quite cross today to hear a woman on radio 2 saying it needs to come down to education. The earlier the better.
It's laying it at the parents and teachers' doors again. Schools can do as many lovely respect pshe lessons as they like but if things like killing women in video games, extreme porn, page 3, visible death threats for famous authors etc. are prevalent, allowed and encouraged by society that's the message boys and men receive.

A good start would be to get the house of commons half filled with women and start making laws and changes to how minor sex crimes and misogyny are tackled.

But with a massive misogynist in no 10 I don't think that will happen.

Imnobody4 · 16/03/2021 20:10

Thread from Nimko Ali

twitter.com/NimkoAli/status/1371913605071912963?s=19
I can hear her frustation.

AbsintheFriends · 16/03/2021 17:44

It's like hoping to cure the plague by putting a frog down your trousers or something.

There's only so much you can achieve to keep women safe on the streets with better lighting and CCTV when the internet is one vast ocean of freely accessible porn. It's my guess that most youngish men these days have seen women being raped and violently overpowered so often on their phone and computer screens that it seems completely commonplace.

peak2021 · 16/03/2021 17:11

@MiniTheMinx well put. The best thing Boris Johnson as an individual could do to help women would be to resign. His own private life demonstrates his misogyny and almost the probable Tory replacements whilst far from perfect would not be as bad.

BarefootByMoonlight · 16/03/2021 17:06

I had counselling session today and despite having made a lot of progress I was so upset the counsellor remarked on how different I was compared to my previous session.

We’d been working on me getting out of the house and starting to feel more in control and safer.

And nearly everything mentioned on this thread so far came up. I can practice breathing, take self defence, carry an alarm, try and look more confident - but the fact remains that as a woman I am not safe because as a woman I am not valued by society but the men who raped me are.

Julie Bindel is correct, a switched off light didn’t rape me, lack of an alarm didn’t rape me, men raped me. And far from cameras stopping them raping me, they used cameras to record the rape and share that with other men.

Men rape with the arrogant confidence that they will get away with it.

And until men start being sanctioned for their abhorrent treatment of women, they will continue to rape.

A fucking streetlight isn’t going to fix that.

And Jeremy Vine - laughing! - during a discussion about the rape and sexual assault of women damn near floored me.

newrubylane · 16/03/2021 16:41

I've been trying to read around this. There's loads of stuff out there about city planners incorporating CCTV and street lighting into designs for women's safety and security he implication that they make a difference. However, I haven't seen any evidence yet that they actually do make women safer, only that they make women feel safer. There is possibly a knock-on effect that if more women feel safe at night more of them may be out on the streets, and busier streets = safer streets. I am sceptical that it's a solution in itself. It may help in places. But I don't think there is a quick fix for this problem. Indeed, I'm not sure it can be fixed at all.

Orchidflower1 · 16/03/2021 11:46

Argh - he thinks lights will be enough!

Orchidflower1 · 16/03/2021 11:45

@MiniTheMinx

Has Bojo et al consulted with any women's groups? doubt it.

Its a sop. It seems to be about the government feeling the need to do something, rather than be seen to do nothing. Its about them washing their hands.

The other thing that makes me a bit sick is the discourse around women's responsibility in raising boys. I have two. And one very striking thing to me is the difference between them. The eldest is asexual with no sexual interest in women. He loudly defends women's rights amongst his friends. The other has a girlfriend and is fast becoming a testosterone saturated arrogant teenager sauntering about with a weird swagger. Both raised the same. The only difference is the younger has been influenced by his discovery of pornography and his friendship group seems to endorse this. This takes me back to the roots of violence being beyond tinkering with street lights. Male attitude seems to change in relation to how they view women as simply sexual objects, irrespective of how equal we are in other spheres, or how the law seeks to tackle male violence and male privilege. No amount of street lights shines a light on the cause of male violence.

So what is needed? what could be done? has the government reached its limits of what it could achieve? I believe so, because it will always fall short of achieving its stated aims because its scope is limited by its own existence. The state itself is inherently violent, and surveillance is another act which seeks control. Why do we need control and further threats of violence (state violence) in order to solve a problem of its own making. What is needed is for men to change their attitude and behaviour, and not because they are threatened with reprisal or further state violence.

We've seen this state violence in action this week directed by the police at women. Violence that Priti Patel is responsible for. Sad that its a woman now blaming another woman (Cresida Dick) for the actions of this state sponsored violence. So, it seems their solution is to ally that guilt. A sop.

If the state is to use any means of control at its disposal it could do something with far wider benefit such as looking at stopping porn, outlawing lap dancing clubs, education in schools, all adults in any position of authority taking every opportunity to educate boys, and at the very least more female representation in politics.

The state itself is a misogynist violent institution born with its roots in the violent exploitation and control of people to its own ends, not too dissimilar to the roots of male violence to women. All about unequal distribution of power backed up with powerful ideological and socially mediated reasons for its own existence. Men seek power over both production and reproduction. I'd much rather Pritti turned her attention to how we can 'police' violent online pornography. But I guess that 'free speech' is somehow only an argument when its not about the right to protest.

I'm so totally disappointed and underwhelmed by this response and wonder how arresting and imprisoning however many men can ever redress the lives lost. And hopping mad that the women at Clapham were subject to more state sponsored male violence simply for having the audacity to have a voice. I suspect Bojo thinks street lights will get us all to just STFU.

Totally agree. He things will be enough- they’re not they are merely the beginning.
MiniTheMinx · 16/03/2021 11:33

@Tanith

Julie Bindel has tweeted:

"Women aren't raped by bad street lighting"

Sorry, was trying to quote Tanith
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MiniTheMinx · 16/03/2021 11:32

precisely

OP posts:
MiniTheMinx · 16/03/2021 11:31

Has Bojo et al consulted with any women's groups? doubt it.

Its a sop. It seems to be about the government feeling the need to do something, rather than be seen to do nothing. Its about them washing their hands.

The other thing that makes me a bit sick is the discourse around women's responsibility in raising boys. I have two. And one very striking thing to me is the difference between them. The eldest is asexual with no sexual interest in women. He loudly defends women's rights amongst his friends. The other has a girlfriend and is fast becoming a testosterone saturated arrogant teenager sauntering about with a weird swagger. Both raised the same. The only difference is the younger has been influenced by his discovery of pornography and his friendship group seems to endorse this. This takes me back to the roots of violence being beyond tinkering with street lights. Male attitude seems to change in relation to how they view women as simply sexual objects, irrespective of how equal we are in other spheres, or how the law seeks to tackle male violence and male privilege. No amount of street lights shines a light on the cause of male violence.

So what is needed? what could be done? has the government reached its limits of what it could achieve? I believe so, because it will always fall short of achieving its stated aims because its scope is limited by its own existence. The state itself is inherently violent, and surveillance is another act which seeks control. Why do we need control and further threats of violence (state violence) in order to solve a problem of its own making. What is needed is for men to change their attitude and behaviour, and not because they are threatened with reprisal or further state violence.

We've seen this state violence in action this week directed by the police at women. Violence that Priti Patel is responsible for. Sad that its a woman now blaming another woman (Cresida Dick) for the actions of this state sponsored violence. So, it seems their solution is to ally that guilt. A sop.

If the state is to use any means of control at its disposal it could do something with far wider benefit such as looking at stopping porn, outlawing lap dancing clubs, education in schools, all adults in any position of authority taking every opportunity to educate boys, and at the very least more female representation in politics.

The state itself is a misogynist violent institution born with its roots in the violent exploitation and control of people to its own ends, not too dissimilar to the roots of male violence to women. All about unequal distribution of power backed up with powerful ideological and socially mediated reasons for its own existence. Men seek power over both production and reproduction. I'd much rather Pritti turned her attention to how we can 'police' violent online pornography. But I guess that 'free speech' is somehow only an argument when its not about the right to protest.

I'm so totally disappointed and underwhelmed by this response and wonder how arresting and imprisoning however many men can ever redress the lives lost. And hopping mad that the women at Clapham were subject to more state sponsored male violence simply for having the audacity to have a voice. I suspect Bojo thinks street lights will get us all to just STFU.

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HollywoodTease · 16/03/2021 11:03

The problem with CCTV and lighting is that they help to identify and catch the perpetrators but they don't actually prevent the crime Sad

Tanith · 16/03/2021 11:00

Julie Bindel has tweeted:

"Women aren't raped by bad street lighting"

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