What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

So?

Anyone with an ounce of common sense will point out how behaviour both forms and reflects beliefs.

You can't have a gender identity without knowing, choosing, preferring, 'identifying with' actions, behaviours, things associated with gender stereotypes.

Put simply until you see a giraffe you don't know what they are!

I think Bunbury would have wise words about this thread.

Sorry board moving too fast
Transgirl hasn't gone through puberty.

Again, what is a 'female' gender identity and how do you know the internal gender identity of someone who has no first hand experience of being female, corresponds to the feelings a female person has about their sexed body?

They may say it over and over and over and over again

It doesn’t make it real

It doesn’t make it something I need to believe

You have today reinforced my beliefs that all transgenderism boils down to is an even more rigid fixation over social perceptions of what girls and boys can do. It’s crap sexism.

I am so fed up of people judging what my DC can do on the basis of their sex

Stop limiting them

And this is what happens when you give an inch.

‘Woman’ has become meaningless so now they’re going for ‘female’ too.

If a transgirl is not male what are they transitioning from exactly?

People like Katy Montgomerie and Paris Lees say it over and over again.

Interestingly they are the exact two people I was referring upthread to who said that their parents didn't allow them to wear dresses and play with dolls as kids.

But the transgirl hasn't .

By including the trans child who are you excluding? Different religious and cultural backgrounds will not allow their daughters to share dressing/toileting space with male bodies. Others will be made to feel unsafe at a male body in their previously female only spaces due to violence, rape and abuse they have experienced.

So they get all the upheaval, upset, discomfort and loss of dignity you are so keen to avoid for the trans girl, but get none of your sympathy- did you even consider them or work out how everyone's needs can be accommodated?

They have a female gender identity, but were assigned male at birth

So they are male then, that's what I thought. I think you must have a typo in your 1833 post

There is no concrete scientific evidence that gender identity is biologically provable. And any studies I have seen (eg. About brain scans etc) always have the disclaimer that some trans people don't fit into whichever theory is being tested, thereby rendering the study kind of pointless.

But the problem with a 'biologically innate' model is that it doesn't support self id, which is obviously kind of.... awkward.

They have a female gender identity, but were assigned male at birth.

So biologically male then. Good, glad we cleared that one up.

That's exactly what I thought Coffee

I understand that MN is allowing leeway here, but this poster seems to be a tad Teflon!

Not a blatant lie at all. I didn’t say that you said it, I said TRAs say it. I’m presuming you don’t think you speak for ALL TRAs?

I can only go what I hear when people ask what makes someone trans and 9/10 times it’s down to clothes and hair and makeup etc . The other 1/10 is usually some fluffy ‘essence’ or other that can’t quite be pinned down.

Having a gender identity that doesn't match the sex she was assigned at birth.

What is a gender identity? What is a 'girl gender identity'? What is a 'boy gender identity'? How does one measure gender identity? What would be the criteria for knowing that a male child has a girl gender identity, what sort of boxes would need to be ticked?

Well, a trans girl isn't male, but she just feels that she is a girl rather than a boy

So it’s back to feelings again and the circular argument. When I have to clean my car I feel like a man.

Having a gender identity that doesn't match the sex she was assigned at birth

But if the person is not male (as you said) and they don't have a male "gender identity" how are they trans?

a trans girl isn't male, but she just feels that she is a girl rather than a boy - it's not a case of toys or particular games or clothes

How do you 'feel' like a girl? We're back to this definition again aren't we.

Also important to note: what when it's not a child who has been a part of the group from an early age, but is a child that reached their teens before socially transitioning and the girls in the group are expected to change with a teenager who they have always known as male?

This is the same argument often used for single sex spaces with pictures of very feminine, young and vulnerable TW meant to attract the sympathy and understanding of 'how could you be so unkind as to not want to look after that feminine person', where if the photograph or video showed an older, adult transitioned TW such as Danielle Muscato complete with beard and the 'suck my lady dick' tweets, women's varied responses would be immediately comprehensible.

Solutions are needed that work for everyone. And that means additional spaces for those who would prefer not to use sex based spaces, and also that some women and girls need single sex spaces.