Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

What's it really like for girls when one of their classmates is trans? A short film.

999 replies

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 18:02

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Shizuku · 17/03/2021 13:52

@mintessa

She's a bright girl, and will be very aware of the limitations of her transition. The fact that many trans kids seek sperm or egg preservation before they start hormones should tell you that they are not ignorant fools.

Yes, good luck to those girls who start taking puberty blockers in their early teens and then inevitably go on to take testosterone. 'Egg preservation' - a walk in the park.

Having held the hand of a trans boy crying whilst he ponders the options before him, I find your glib "walk in the park" particularly crass.
OP posts:
GreyhoundG1rl · 17/03/2021 13:52

Why aren't you answering the "what is gender identity" questions, op??

Shizuku · 17/03/2021 13:49

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The fact that many trans kids seek sperm or egg preservation before they start hormones should tell you that they are not ignorant fools.

Are you aware what is involved in egg preservation? It's not like wanking into a pot is for males.

Yes I do, because I know several trans boys.
OP posts:
EdgeOfACoin · 17/03/2021 13:48

The argument that the OP seems to be making is that playing with dolls doesn't make a male child a girl. However, a male-bodied child with a 'girl' gender identity will want to play with dolls because that's what girls do (or have been socialised to do).

This is why children with a 'boy' gender identity in the UK will play football, because over here football is seen as a boys' game while in the States it will be children with a 'girl' gender identity who play soccer.

I kind of get the argument, but it seems very chicken-and-egg to me. What comes first, the behaviour or the identity?

And secondly, again, what are the components of one's 'gender identity'?

Helleofabore · 17/03/2021 13:44

And yet there are her friends, happily playing with her and sharing the showers with her. No one dies - just kids being friends and having fun.

Not quite the way it is typically painted with terrified girls locking themselves in cubicles to escape a big, predatory teenage boy with a dress on.

Please stop making out this documentary depicts the actual reality. It is a commercial production. It will have been carefully chosen who would be in it and edited to suit what the maker wanted to tell as the story.

Your continued reliance on these tactics really does not add any credibility to your posts.

This is NOT a hard hitting investigative journalistic piece showing both sides of a divisive medical practice.

It really doesn’t take much understanding how these productions get funded to know this is pure bias. It seems from your continued line of presenting this type of ‘evidence’ you think the readers of these threads cannot think for themselves either. I think you really need to read widely on this forum to understand the dynamics better.

mintessa · 17/03/2021 13:43

She's a bright girl, and will be very aware of the limitations of her transition. The fact that many trans kids seek sperm or egg preservation before they start hormones should tell you that they are not ignorant fools.

Yes, good luck to those girls who start taking puberty blockers in their early teens and then inevitably go on to take testosterone. 'Egg preservation' - a walk in the park.

EdgeOfACoin · 17/03/2021 13:39

What is a gender identity?

Please, explain it to me. What are the objective criteria that make up one's gender identity? For instance, if a child comes to you confused over their gender identity, what would you say to them to help them figure it out?

You keep saying that gendered behaviour is different from gender identity. Fine. Gender identity is not stereotypes. So what is it?

adviceseekingnamechanger · 17/03/2021 13:39

Yes! Your one staged, entirely one-sided video from a decade ago is absolutely robust evidence that there are no safeguarding concerns whatsoever and all trans girls should be allowed into all female spaces. And it definitely doesn't matter if any girls feel uncomfortable or if they have religious needs, because they don't deserve the right to single sex spaces free from male bodies. Only trans needs matter, not Muslim ones, not female ones. I get it. I'm educated now, thanks so much.

GreyhoundG1rl · 17/03/2021 13:37

Actually, I've reiterated the entire point. It's not the point that supports your ideology, but it is the point.
No. The point of the quote is that the child says quite unambiguously that younger children may object, but they could do nothing.
And you respond with "but look at the child's friends (who have obviously been hand picked to take part in the film) not objecting".
Did you not understand the quote's significance?
You haven't even addressed the point.

DodoPatrol · 17/03/2021 13:37

Not quite the way it is typically painted with terrified girls locking themselves in cubicles to escape a big, predatory teenage boy with a dress on.

What is your point here? If there is a large, predatory teenage boy or indeed adult in the changing room, I take it you DO think the girls have reason to be terrified? What - without being accused of transphobia - do you suggest they do about it? How will you preserve their rights in law?

ArabellaScott · 17/03/2021 13:36

@StellaAndCrow

I don't think you've explained yet what this "female gender identity" is.
Its a feeling that you just can't explain, quantify or describe, Stella!

You should know that, being 'female'!

ArabellaScott · 17/03/2021 13:36

I see, Shizuku.

All there is to being 'female' is a feeling in your head. I think I've got it now.

Do keep on educating us, it's really helpful.

flyingfoxkins · 17/03/2021 13:35

@StellaAndCrow -
Yes, I agree. And it sounds like they are attracted to boys. It would be so much more inclusive to have support around the possibility of growing up as a gay boy.

Yes, that was my thought too. Why rule this out as a possibility when the child is this young.

StellaAndCrow · 17/03/2021 13:35

I don't think you've explained yet what this "female gender identity" is.

mintessa · 17/03/2021 13:35

And yet there are her friends, happily playing with her and sharing the showers with her. No one dies - just kids being friends and having fun.

Not quite the way it is typically painted with terrified girls locking themselves in cubicles to escape a big, predatory teenage boy with a dress on.

It's a short film, with its own agenda. The director likely chose not to include any girls who were not in fact comfortable sharing their private spaces. That's the director's prerogative, of course, but it's hardly proof that all girls are fine with this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/03/2021 13:34

The fact that many trans kids seek sperm or egg preservation before they start hormones should tell you that they are not ignorant fools.

Are you aware what is involved in egg preservation? It's not like wanking into a pot is for males.

StellaAndCrow · 17/03/2021 13:33

Do you know how to tell the difference between a feminine boy who isn't trans and a feminine girl who is trans?
It's easy - the feminine boy has a male gender identity and the feminine girl has a female gender identity.

What is it about the feminine boy that makes him 'trans' rather than a feminine boy?

Shizuku · 17/03/2021 13:33

@GreyhoundG1rl

And yet there are her friends, happily playing with her and sharing the showers with her. No one dies - just kids being friends and having fun. You've missed the entire point. Again.
Actually, I've reiterated the entire point. It's not the point that supports your ideology, but it is the point.
OP posts:
Shizuku · 17/03/2021 13:32

"And it sounds like they are attracted to boys. It would be so much more inclusive to have support around the possibility of growing up as a gay boy."

How does she do that with a female gender identity?

OP posts:
GreyhoundG1rl · 17/03/2021 13:31

And yet there are her friends, happily playing with her and sharing the showers with her. No one dies - just kids being friends and having fun.
You've missed the entire point. Again.

Shizuku · 17/03/2021 13:31

@UsedUpUsername

It struck me when Joppe was in the pool and mentioned that they were constantly worried about their penis being visible and looking enviously at the girls bodies

I wish somebody could just tell them they will never be a biological girl but that’s okay ... otherwise it will be a life of constant disappointment even if everyone tries to #bekind

She's a bright girl, and will be very aware of the limitations of her transition. The fact that many trans kids seek sperm or egg preservation before they start hormones should tell you that they are not ignorant fools.
OP posts:
StellaAndCrow · 17/03/2021 13:31

@gardenbird48

These days girls tend to stop playing with dolls around 8 or 9. I can't imagine a bunch of high school girls choosing to play with Barbies unless they felt they had to 'be kind' to someone.

good point, only one of my DDs played with barbies and they were ditched long before the end of primary school.

I know a couple of boys who have girls as their entire friendship group - the boys are rather camp and they all have a lovely time together (although sleepovers will be a no-no).

It doesn't mean that the boys should really be girls - those two boys are the perfect illustration of a boy widening the bandwidth of what it means to be a boy (although how we regressed to such narrow sex stereotypes after the Olympic standard boundary pushing of the 1980s I don't know).

We still haven't established any idea of the frame of reference that doesn't involve stereotypes that a boy (or a three year old) would use to determine that he is really a girl.

I also think it is really sad that the child in this video is being encouraged into a situation where at a time when children are extremely conscious of their changing bodies anyway, adults are confirming that this child's body is wrong and needs to be changed fundamentally with powerful drugs.

It struck me when Joppe was in the pool and mentioned that they were constantly worried about their penis being visible and looking enviously at the girls bodies.

If Joppe wasn't trying to present as a girl and constantly worrying about not 'passing', I think a layer of stress would be removed from their life.

Yes, I agree. And it sounds like they are attracted to boys. It would be so much more inclusive to have support around the possibility of growing up as a gay boy.
Shizuku · 17/03/2021 13:29

@MiddlesexGirl

You know how kids like to do what other people in their peer group are doing? And you know how girls tend to play with Barbie dolls more than boys? And you know how trans girls see other girls as their peer group?

I know this was a long way up thread but it is truly scary how these observations somehow translate to boys who play with 'girl' toys must be trans girls.

Do you know how to tell the difference between a feminine boy who isn't trans and a feminine girl who is trans?

It's easy - the feminine boy has a male gender identity and the feminine girl has a female gender identity.

OP posts:
Shizuku · 17/03/2021 13:26

@Galvantulang

Yeah this was the line that stuck out for me too. :( I took the screenshot as when I read it at first I couldn't believe it was a direct quote)

The fact is that adults have helped this child to be put on medication which will render them infertile. The child believes it will be fine to tell boys 'later' as they won't be able to tell.

It's awful that the child callously dismisses the younger girls feelings (thanks partly to the person asking questions saying "weren't there some stupid kids in your class?" i.e. Non believers) but also really sad to me that they've been sold this lie as a solution. :(

No child is winning here.

So no @Shizuku this video doesn't help.

And yet there are her friends, happily playing with her and sharing the showers with her. No one dies - just kids being friends and having fun.

Not quite the way it is typically painted with terrified girls locking themselves in cubicles to escape a big, predatory teenage boy with a dress on.

OP posts:
Shizuku · 17/03/2021 13:24

@CharlieParley

You: "Trans is always about stereotypes."

The doctrine of gender identity connects embodying the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes of the opposite sex with (trans)gender identity. When a person who is male states they identify as a woman, this is not and it cannot be based on knowing what it is to inhabit a female body or what it is like to be born female in a male-dominated world. They are however using the word woman as a referent. (A referent is the word we use to refer to a living being, an inanimate object, a location, an abstraction or an idea.) In this case the word woman is a stand-in for everything that this male individual believes makes a woman. We know from countless autobiographical works, videos and self-reports that in the absence of knowing what it feels like to inhabit a female body, this belief centres on the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with being female and with that individual's strong preference for any number of those stereotypes.

Which is why training courses delivered by transgender organisations focus on stereotypes when explaining what it is to have a transgender identity.

Me: "Here are examples of when it isn't."

That study does not disaggregate its data to allow for such an absolute statement. It lists various categories of stereotypes, but it does not tell us whether even one of its study subjects rejected all the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex. It doesn't even mention in passing whether a study subject who has not adopted one stereotype of the opposite sex is more or less likely to also reject other stereotypes, or whether those who haven't adopted opposite-sex stereotypes always embody the stereotypes of their own sex instead. The study authors also fail to disaggregate the data by identity, i.e. those children who told them they do not identify with their own or the opposite sex or who identify with both are subsumed into the transgender group. So we cannot tell whether stereotypes are more important for those who do identify as the opposite sex and less important for those who identify as both or neither. The study only mentions that some children adopt some stereotypes of their own sex, but says nothing about how these same children feel about all the other measured stereotypes. And finally, if a child were to believe they are the opposite sex because they strongly prefer just a single stereotype associated with the opposite sex, they would still be basing their belief on stereotypes.

The authors don't actually mention tomboys in the body of the study, or the conclusions, so I'm not sure why you are so adamant about that word. It only appears in a brief literature review at the beginning and the connected references at the end. Instead the study states that like all children, those who identify as trans embody some stereotypes more strongly and others less strongly. As femininity and masculinity do indeed exist on a spectrum, and we all fall somewhere in between, this is entirely expected.

You: "Trans is always about stereotypes even when it isn't."

Do you understand what class-based analysis is? It does not depend on all members of a class meeting all of the described characteristics to be valid.

I do believe that you'd be better off directing your ire at trans rights organisations and campaigners, who have been pushing the connection between (trans)gender identity and stereotypes for decades now. I would welcome a return to the previous understanding of transsexualism and gender dysphoria as a type of body dysmorphia, but I won't hold my breath as this does not seem to serve current aims.

I'm afraid you won't be able to obscure the conclusion that easily.

It's actually very simple. The claim here is that being trans is all abut gender stereotypes.

When a young girl is displaying behavioural tendencies that obviously fall outside the female stereotypes, and within the male stereotypes, we typically call her a "tomboy". It's a given that not every single thing she ever does in her life will defy female gender stereotypes, but it's also a given that if she defies enough of them, she will fall into the category that we recognise as a tomboy.

If being trans was purely about conforming to gender stereotypes, then all trans girls would be notably gender-conforming and would never fall into mostly, but not completely, stereotype-defying category of tomboy.

The conclusion drawn by the commentator in the article is the logical and obvious one, that some trans girls are not particularly gender-conforming and fall easily into the category that anyone would recognise as a gender non-conforming girl, or for short, "tomboy".

You see the same in trans adults. I know a trans man who is very feminine, very gay and a fashion designer. I know a trans woman who is a butch lesbian and you only have to look around you to see trans woman racing drivers, boxers etc.

The fact of the matter is that most people conform to a lot of gender stereotypes - most girls and women wear skirts at least some of the time, most wear at least some make up, most boys and men have shorter hair than most girls and women etc, but at the same time, most people defy at least some stereotypes, some people defy many or even most stereotypes. Trans people are exactly the same.

OP posts: