Jordan Peterson

I agree Molten. I would add that when he speaks about “women” it is the average woman and based on research he has read. He does talk about “the distribution” of certain traits.

I have not read JP extensively but one thing I have seen him criticised for is the belief that it is likely that behavioural differences between men and women are likely to be biologically as well as socially driven.

I can understand why feminists reject this so strongly, it's the first step on the path that says women should stay home in the kitchen and be nice, earth mothers etc. However he also argues that women are doing themselves no favours by trying to be the same as men when we need different protections.

I think he has a point here - c 90% of women become mothers, and yet we continue to treat motherhood like a personal choice where the individual pays the penalty, rather than seeing the class based picture. The fact is most women are very differently impacted by parenthood, and trying to pretend we aren't because some women can afford a litany of cleaners, nannies and other supports to get back to work ASAP does not negate the fact that this isn't possible for the majority.

I don’t think he is an ally to feminists. But I think he is an ally to individual women if that makes sense.

He seems to think that a lot of structures in society are what they are and that many women make choices which then results in a gender pay gap. Furthermore, he does not have a problem with that, he just observes it and believes that it may be the best choice for certain women. He accepts that there is a male dominated environment in many companies and governments and has no ambition to change that.

On the other hand, he seems passionate about empowering women to make the choices that are best for them. He also seems to have encouraged women to argue for higher pay, better opportunities and to be more assertive when competing with men.

Started going back to the gym (this seems particularly popular), eating better, and one has gone back into school. They’ve seemed to have used their lockdown time better than me!

Anything that motivates people to improve themselves gets a positive in my estimation. Better than whining ......

It's what they do after listening to him that concerns me

Such as?

He's not an ally.
There's a reason his writings and words attract MRAs, incels etc. He thinks women should know their place.

Very much so.
You put this much better than I did.

He doesn't think women should know their place. He sets out ideas of what would change toxic male behaviour in society as a philosophical debate. He's generally pretty respectful to women. Even Cathy Newman. Who didn't cover herself in glory on that interview at all.

Disagree. They are generally more useful after they are influenced by JP. He seems to motivate them to actually DO something instead of sitting around and whining about the unfairness of life.

It's what they do after listening to him that concerns me. If you read accounts of, or listen to the young men who proport to be his fans, or disciples a few years ago, it's rather concerning the direction they're headed.

He's not an ally.
There's a reason his writings and words attract MRAs, incels etc. He thinks women should know their place.

I'd disagree on this on the basis that he's basically just playing the 1950s dad and enforcing the same toxic masculinity and patriarchal hierarchy that has men so bloody useless to begin with

Disagree. They are generally more useful after they are influenced by JP. He seems to motivate them to actually DO something instead of sitting around and whining about the unfairness of life.

He needs to spend more time listening to women of different socio-economic backgrounds and cultures instead of assuming he knows it all because he is married to his childhood sweetheart and has a good relationship with his daughter. He is Naive and too simplistic when it comes to women

His daughter seems like a nutcase, honestly speaking

I like him. I think he's a good role model for men and encourages them to take responsibility for themselves and their own behaviour.

He is probably a good role model for young men looking for meaning in their lives so in that respect he is ok.

I'd disagree on this on the basis that he's basically just playing the 1950s dad and enforcing the same toxic masculinity and patriarchal hierarchy that has men so bloody useless to begin with.

I think JP thinks he is so intelligent and that because he’s pretty much got male behaviour sorted he can extrapolate that to women.

He needs to spend more time listening to women of different socio-economic backgrounds and cultures instead of assuming he knows it all because he is married to his childhood sweetheart and has a good relationship with his daughter. He is Naive and too simplistic when it comes to women.

He is probably a good role model for young men looking for meaning in their lives so in that respect he is ok.

He did an interview with Russell Brand and that is how I came to find out more about him.

There have been some really balanced responses today, which have been a joy to read. He's usually dismissed and trashed, here!

I like what he says about men and society. He isn't great about women- he should stop talking about us .

Bookmarking for later. DS13 has discovered JP on YouTube so we’ve been discussing JP recently. Some of his stuff seems sensible but there’s a side to his work I don’t like and I need to understand better to critique it.

He's had a massive breakdown recently and ended up being put in a coma in a Russian hospital. He's been diagnosed with schizophrenia and BPD I believe. There is an unbelievable article in the Times about the whole experience (paywall sorry).

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jordan-peterson-depression-drug-dependency-daughter-mikhaila-rehab-russia-0xtz2ph32

He is an intelligent man with some very conservative views who has been adopted by the alt-right and is very much on the edge.

I listened to his audio book. He read it and it was like being harangued for hours - I think he doesn't realise how off putting he sounds and this sometimes colours people's impressions of his work.

I find him quite annoying too - I've read/heard far more about him than I've actually listened to him. I gave up halfway through an interview with him the other day. I'm not really his target audience, I guess - the self-improvement stuff doesn't grab me. I just know he's really annoying the people that I want to see annoyed.

And he's certainly abrasive. But I know I am too. I do respect people who are blunt and to the point, if I feel it's with broadly good motives, and not intent to bully or be vindictive.

I'd never actually read any of his stuff until this essay the other day, which I didn't know was him until I'd finished - I had to go back and check "who the hell was that?" He can certainly write.

I find him interesting although I don't agree with a lot of what he says (and wouldn't life be boring if we only surrounded ourselves with people who agreed with us!) I also feel that he doesn't really get women. Hasn't been married for a long time? (Nothing wrong with that but I don't think he has much understanding of women in general). I listened to his audio book. He read it and it was like being harangued for hours - I think he doesn't realise how off putting he sounds and this sometimes colours people's impressions of his work. Suzanne Moore recently wrote a brilliant piece on him in her subscriber emails - well worth signing up to those!

Stop talking about their rights but act on their responsibilities to yourself and others.

I think this gets to the core of why he's so controversial.

There's a kind of visceral response to "self-improvement" in some circles - it's akin to "victim blaming".

A sort of binary thinking or at least ascribing bad faith - anyone suggesting people work on themselves is saying that to try to get out of also working on society.

You need both - personal responsibility, and a society that rewards that. We seem to be failing on both counts - society (even more in the US) has been failing to reward workers well, and I think that's led to more hopelessness - people failing to reach their potential.

I've always objected to Conservatives positing self-improvement as an answer to society's problems - it's like musical chairs - not everyone can be a CEO. Someone has to be at the bottom and to clean the streets, and they should be rewarded for their work, not punished for failure.

But self-improvement for individuals is fine, and as far as I can see that's what Peterson does. The stuff I've heard from him on broader politics is liberalism, not "trickle-down economics" conservative crap.

And at this point, left-v-right on economics is really not the issue. It's liberalism versus authoritarianism. We need everyone on board to fight the Woke stuff, and he seems solid, and with broad popular appeal.

I keep posting this article, because I don't see anyone else doing so, and I love Louise Perry.

The feminist case for Jordan Peterson - I came to mock the Canadian guru but stayed to respect the depth of his thought

sticking
s.b. siccing.

He is indeed a man mainly writing about personal responsibility in a way that seems to appeal to predominantly men.

I believe that he is very compassionate (was a clinical psychologist for years) and that he has seen the best and worst of human nature.

He is familiar with a lot of research and history but uses easily accessible comparisons and explains concepts in an easy way.

He also talks a lot about what things are ( based on existing empirical evidence) as opposed to what they should be.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

The video is an interview with Cathy Newman. They are discussing gender pay gap, men and women and a bit of compelled pronouns.

He's a competent writer and he seems to be expressing ideas that some people need to hear. But as a person, he seems to be a self-important whiny narcissist bully, and I find that hard to respect.

When he disappeared for a few years, I actually forgot why I'd disliked him. I thought maybe the Woke had successfully prejudiced me against him. But then I saw this and all my dislike resurfaced twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1367102473429807110
Why do you hate me so much @helenlewis? I have tried to be a good man.

Ugh. If you read the link it's to a very interesting and well-balanced article that evinces no "hate" whatsoever. I really wonder how he'd deal with a clinical client who claimed to be "hated" based on similar evidence.

Furthermore, presuming he read the article, he KNOWS he's sticking his troll army on Helen Lewis by tweeting that. The article talks about that and Helen's prior experience of it. It's inexcusable.

I'm absolutely done with self-important narcissistic men playing the victim to bully women. Fuck that shit.

“The people who hold that our culture is an oppressive patriarchy, they don’t want to admit that the current hierarchy might be predicated on competence."

J. P.