Where New Zealand's surrogacy laws could be headed

To hold your view you have to disagree with the majority of women who actually have the life experience you're taking a position on. I don't have much time for that, especially as those i know are anything but vulnerable.

That's a remarkably comprehensive survey or post-surrogacy data collection and analysis that you must be referencing and, from your description of its definitive nature and reliability, it must involve many countries.

I would be interested in the reference especially as it's usually quite difficult to collect quantitative and qualitative data on women who are vulnerable, never mind those who are engaged in actions that might be legal but are culturally taboo, especially those in LMIC.

More recently Barrie Drewitt Barlow and his fiancé Scott (not sure that's allowed as Barrie is still married to Tony...anyway) had two of the triplets receive a fatal injection in the heart in vitro and they only wanted one.

Jesus, that's appalling. That should only ever be allowed at the sole instigation of the surrogate mother.

Excellent point Hardbackwriter subsequent pregnancies can be quite different.

Be Kind

When I see ads for surrogacy and egg donation marketing teenage girls and college young women, I could care less about how kind I am perceived.

I prefer to be seen as fierce - as a mother, I've quite learned that being nice and kind towards self-interested parties doesn't protect the vulnerable and I could care less about the feelings of those who would manipulate young and vulnerable women.

No, I'm not any of those people. I do know who they are and some are far too kind for the tone of the 'debate' here. Bad form to guess the identities of posters on an anonymous forum. It's clear you've reduced to a situation where all's fair in war. That undermines you and says a great deal about you.

[quote Dangertime]www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/parenting/pregnancy/conception/300237663/where-new-zealands-surrogacy-laws-could-be-headed[/quote]
And this is New Zealand, supposedly one of the most humane and progressive countries in the world despite the huge issues it has with DV. I despair.

Correct NiceGerbil, the U.S. has some people, notably NY Governor Cuomo (yes, the same gov. who's currently been accused of numerous sexual harassment incidents) who pushed to loosen regulations.

www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-announces-gestational-surrogacy-now-legal-new-york-state

Feminists were against this, but I swear no one listens to women. www.stopsurrogacynow.com/gloria-steinem-calls-upon-new-york-gov-cuomo-to-not-legalize-commercial-surrogacy/

Women having babies at 46 are not viewed kindly by society.

Unless they are doing it for someone else it seems...

others may have more info...

Susan A Ring in Unexpected Mother explains how in the second surrogacy for the same couple as the sin she gave them, she was asked to abort all three babies she was carrying as the couple changed their minds. They were divorcing. 'Foetal reduction' resulted in her burying the dead triplet in her garden after she expelled it at home, after delivering the twins who were adopted, since their commissions parents refused to answer her calls and cut her off financially.

More recently Barrie Drewitt Barlow and his fiancé Scott (not sure that's allowed as Barrie is still married to Tony...anyway) had two of the triplets receive a fatal injection in the heart in vitro and they only wanted one. If that was the case they maybe should have considered how many embryos they put in the mother, much like the above. Though he doesn't go into detail is was well documented in Closer magazine that he was expecting triplets but only had Baby Valentina as he had enough boys in the family already (I paraphrase...Saffron is no longer the only girl).

You can hear more about how many embryos you can put in an Indian woman here.

"Despite the lack of surrogates, in some cases, willing women are being turned away.
One woman’s weight saw her ruled out. For another, it was her age. Hannah* was matched with an intending parent through a clinic, which led to a full medical assessment from a fertility specialist.
Because she is 46, Hannah was referred to an obstetrician, who gave her the all-clear. But after months of preparation, counselling and meetings, Ecart declined her application.
“It has been an emotional rollercoaster for both of us,” she says.
Hannah and her intending parent are considering carrying out the surrogacy in Hawaii. But after a couple of complaints and some terse words, they’ve been allowed to resubmit to the committee, giving them hope Hannah can carry a baby in New Zealand."

So women who are willing to be surrogate mothers should be allowed to irrespective of health issues? Incredible, medical advice against going through this at age 46 but still hell bent on finding a way.

What I can't fathom is all this puts the baby they claim to want so badly at risk too. A woman of 46 is extremely likely to suffer from hypertension or pre-eclampsia and may need an early delivery, meaning a premature baby (which may also be small for gestational age due to the raised BP) and all the risks involved. And that's just for starters. Likewise the risks associated with raised BMI including gestational diabetes and these things affect the fetus and its health in childhood through to adulthood. But they are cross that she should have been turned down. 

Russia

www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/08/03/8-arrested-in-russias-first-surrogacy-probe-a71049

China

Thailand

www.thestar.com.my/aseanplus/aseanplus-news/2020/05/27/four-medics-questioned-in-wombs-for-hire-case-in-thailand

In USA I believe the contracts have been tightened up so that the 'commissioning parents' can essentially order an abortion no questions asked- others may have more info.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/463323/

is that you Lisa Lumdeelums? Kim Cotton? Natalie Gamble?

Or maybe Dr Kirsty Horsey has come to tell us about her life experience and her research studies from Kent University...how many surrogate mothers were there in that study?

That fear of link after birth that you speak of, when there is no longer a link, how many babies born by surrogacy have a fear of having a link to their mothers?

Nigeria

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2011/jun/02/nigeria-baby-farm-raided-human-trafficking

Ukraine

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/15/the-stranded-babies-of-kyiv-and-the-women-who-give-birth-for-money

India

time.com/3838319/israel-nepal-surrogates/#:~:text=The%20infants'%20arrival%20completed%20the,Saturday%20killed%20more%20than%204%2C000.&text=Only%20heterosexual%20couples%20can%20easily,to%20bear%20children%20with%20surrogates.

Why do you assume that I don't know anything about this?

@Defmy have you been pregnant and birthed children? Or are you considering being a surrogate?

@Syeknom good for you!!! Maybe we mothers need to talk more about the perineum tears, the high blood pressure, the upper stomach muscles not ever reconnecting, exhaustion, etc. and those are minor complications.

You are really wrong and misinformed to suggest that a small minority of surrogates are ok. I think you also don't realise that it's very different from country to country so you can't really make comments like that.

To hold your view you have to disagree with the majority of women who actually have the life experience you're taking a position on. I don't have much time for that, especially as those i know are anything but vulnerable.

nice

My life experiences have brought me into contact with them.

Single parents are 'socially infertile'?

If they're single parents then... They have at least one child already?!

And again they mean men don't they.

Final cut n paste

'But surrogacy and adoption lawyer Stewart Dalley argues that same-sex couples, or single parents, are “inherently socially infertile” and should therefore be able to access funding'

I mean FGS.

And also note when they say same sex couples throughout, they really mean gay men.

The argument for me is the same as women in porn and prostitution.

The fact that there are a small minority who are aok with it and all goes well is dwarfed by the massive harm to so many vulnerable women.

There are terrible things reported about surrogacy around the world.

If we lived in autopia where all the women doing porn, prostitution, surrogacy. Were doing it through genuine choice, enjoyed it, there was no financial or other incentive. Then I'd say ok then.

We are nowhere near that place and so the answer from me is a blanket no.

Incidentally we have similar rules in the UK to NZ by the sound of it.

Suddenly there's a big push to change to the USA style.

The fact it's not fair that people 'have' to go abroad to get what they want is pushed as a reason to change the laws. For convenience. And because not enough women want to do it for altruistic reasons. And because the women who carries and births the baby is recognised as it's mother. So old fashioned! So difficult! Must be changed.

Defmy how come you know so many surrogates?

It's not that common is it?

The idea that a woman who grows and births a baby is totally unrelated to it is a male view, a misogynist view, and also a view of female as a vessel.

Precisely.

Just as the male view of the vagina is merely a receptacle for a penis, and not a complex component of an entire reproductive apparatus, hence the validity of the "neo-vagina".

My cut and paste has stopped working.

2 more.

The heterosexual couple have spent 300k and gone through a lot of stress etc. What effect is all this having on their existing children?

And finally. Lamenting that a woman got turned down by authorities as a surrogate as she was 46. 46! Pregnancy is hard work and so is giving birth. To consider 46 yo women for this is, well it's surprising.

FYI I am against surrogacy full stop.