--protect your daughter--, educate your son"

*WE, not just me Freudian slip ha.

Hopefully in your DH's case he is mirroring a healthy relationship, much of the bad behaviours adults adopt have been learned from a young age which is why abuse can be cyclical. He would have, presumably, through school and home been taught kindness not always as an overt lesson but being scorned if violent, aggressive etc, learning how to be a good person. Whilst I will be having explicit conversations around consent etc, a lot of the "education" is behaving in a way you want your children to behave.

Men have sons too.

@ Happinessisawarmcervix this reminds me of why Wellington was so successful in the peninsular war campaign against Napoleon. He absolutely forbade any soldier to rape and pillage, I may be wrong but I think they could’ve been shot for it. The army took its own food to so didn’t have to rely on taking from the Spanish. In return the Spanish didn’t resent the English as much as the French. So it pays in the end to respect the women, the children and the vulnerable. It’s the intelligent and wise thing to do as a man.

‘Educate your sons’ sounds a lot to me like ‘women, it’s still your fault’.

@ MichelleofzeResistance exactly. We have forgotten in our race to equality, that some inequalities exist that if we don’t acknowledge them and how to control them as a society we end up with this natural tendency in males to grow unchecked. We cannot demonise our sons for being strong, we must teach them how to use their strength properly and to behave properly and we must as a society call out men who treat women and the vulnerable like shit.

We cannot blame them for being strong or male, doing that will breed resentment.

But mostly this is a male problem to solve. Men need to get their house in order. They need to look at how they are raising their sons. More men need to go into teaching at primary Level and set a good example.

@Fucket, you are not far wrong to mention the old code of chivalry. If I remember my lectures properly, it was started because women and children were seen as fair game in wartime - or in the general violence of medieval life - so a movement began to say “on these days there will be no fighting at all” and “women and children are to be left in peace, decent men fight each other.” Gradually the elaborate codes of behaviour that we think of as “knightly” grew from that.

I suppose there is a question as to how far it was ever really observed though.

There will need to be a return to values and beliefs being culturally fashionable and part of daily culture, and other beliefs and behaviours being taboo and seen as shameful before anything really changes. That was what contained and controlled social behaviour successfully with men in the past. At the moment tv constantly reflects and glamorises much of the attitudes and beliefs that lead to one sex being subordinated to the other - even if we're not supposed to talk about it.

If you watch a line of reception aged children lining up in the playground, I noticed this a lot when one of mine was in reception. Often you see a boy happily barge into the line at the spot he chooses, and often you see a displaced girl just move out of the way and go somewhere else. The competitive/physical and the 'give ground' is there at four, and I never saw it noticed by staff. No one encouraged the girl to stand their ground and hold their boundaries, or was firm with the boy that physical ways to get what you want aren't ok. Even at that age, unconscious physical behaviour is setting who gets and who gives.

Schools. Kids pick up so much from their peers. I feel so many boys develop their sexist attitudes from school. My DD has been to a few primary schools and is at high school now and it just seems so ingrained.
Girls not being allowed on the school field because boys are playing football (DD was in the bloody football team at every school).
Girls being told not to wear short skirts because it's distracting for boys.
I've had to complain about boys making comments about the girls, but was made to feel that I was making a fuss.
Boys being allowed to get away with poorer behaviour, whilst girls are punished for the same things.
Girls PE lessons being cancelled, but rarely the boys because they "need the exercise".
Pupils were banned from going to the toilets in lesson time because toilets were being vandalised, but then they had to make exceptions for girls on their periods. A parent complained that they were discriminating against the boys, so all the pupils were banned. But it was only the boys toilets that were getting vandalised.

I posted on the other thread that got pulled. Essentially I was of the opinion that I’d treat my kids equally regardless of sex. Now my ds is 7 and even though not the eldest/tallest he can physically dominate his sisters. It’s old fashioned to some but DH and I are trying very hard to explain to him that boys are mostly stronger than women and that it’s not ok to use strength to control and get your own way. Also the way he wants to play is not how most girls (including his sisters) want to play. In fact of all
Our sons behaviours, him using his strength to get his own way over his sisters is the one that gets him into the most trouble.

I know there is a lot of media in schools and TV about how girls and boys can be whatever they want. The focus on the non-stereotypical girls and boys, boys in dresses etc. There is not much for the boys who want to play fight, who want to grow up and big physically strong and like action. Which tbh is most of them.

We need to channel the message to these boys, it’s ok to be big and strong, in order to protect and help those who need you I.e. become a fireman, soldier etc That as bigger men they can stand up to the bullies when the vulnerable can’t. Almost like the old
Code of chivalry, but I don’t subscribe to all of that. But there has to be something for boys to grow up and aspire to. I’d rather a bunch of King Arthur, Robin Hood wannabes than boys being brainwashed by porn, first person shooter games and dodgy online groups who hate women.

We can teach them whatever we like, but if they go home to an adult they look up to who says “yeah, well, your teacher would say that, she’s a bird, int she?” It’s an uphill battle.

We have to start somewhere . Drip by drip ...

I understand why people want to put the emphasis on parents educating their boys rather than protecting their girls, but I'm not sure how effective it can really be.

Firstly, the kind of parents who would be keen to respond to a call to educate boys in this way are probably the ones who are already doing so by modelling equitable relationships and respectful behaviour towards women. Secondly, anti-sexist education by parents is not necessarily going to counteract the attitudes boys encounter and are influenced by elsewhere.

*Differently abled

But neither party knows how the other feels so surely it’s better to take steps to minimise discomfort and feeling scared than to not?

Why is the default to head towards she may not feel uncomfy so it’s fine rather than she may feel uncomfy so take simple steps

I know but there might be some women who don't feel intimidated. To assume they all are- isn't that a sexist stereotype?

You’re not assuming they are, you’re assuming they could be because they are more vulnerable due to size and strength.

Am I being ageist and ableist to move to the other side of the street in the dark when there is a much younger or much older or differently abler person who may feel vulnerable with me coming up behind them?

I live in a part of the UK that is economically deprived, mostly working class and despite being full of brilliant people has a massive amount of sexist attitudes that are passed on from generation to generation.

So if a family has a mum and dad there’s a lot of dads still saying “don’t clean up, your mum/sister will do it. That’s women’s work.” Men will talk dismissively about women in front of their children. They judge sexually active women but not men. This all starts very early for the kids, who pick up on who has value in the community. So kids say “I don’t need to do that, I’ll get my girlfriend to do it when I’m older” about childcare, housework etc.

Kids see much worse of course, but it’s like this is the norm. Women are nags, emotional, trying to trap men. You can’t really trust them, not like your mates. You can predict with reasonable accuracy who has a sexist dad from comments the kids come out with. We can teach them whatever we like, but if they go home to an adult they look up to who says “yeah, well, your teacher would say that, she’s a bird, int she?” It’s an uphill battle.

I have 2 boys, 18 and 16. Brought up basically on my own...father flitting in.
I know with certainty because we talk about it that they have become non toxic men. They don’t even watch porn, much to the disbelief of their friends “you must watch porn...everyone does”
But porn is just an example of things we’ve talked about and they’ve understood it’s harms from their point of view as well as the women involved and women they’ll encounter. (They’ve been recounting recently how many many of their friends have become addicted to porn during lockdown but that’s a whole other thread)

My eldest son recently enquired with me about this new feeling of jealousy he was experiencing with a new girlfriend...because he didn’t like it..and we were able to talk about it rationally, deeply and without blame. I found that moving that he could talk to me about it because jealousy is so intimately linked with violence against women. The point being, jealousy is normal but acting it out isn’t and we were able to talk at this level.

Anyway, I’m sort of pleased they seem decent men but there are also some worries...

• they would never dream of approaching a woman to ‘chat them up’. This is now seen as pervy so it’s just not done anymore

• they would never go out with anyone even slightly younger, e.g. a year. That’s ‘paedo’ . Ask your teen boys...it’s definitely a thing not just with mine!

I know this seems small but there are certain ramifications of this to all of us, and I’m not entirely comfortable with the default being ‘pervert’ for young men

Should they? If they have no intent to do anything harmful? Should they assume the woman is fearful? I'm not convinced by that. Yes calling out sexist attitudes, but this I'm not sure on.

Yes, they should. It’s not necessarily about sexist attitudes, it’s about understanding that other people feel vulnerable. I do this when there is an elderly or infirm person walking in front of me at night and I want to overtake.
I also often do this when running as I know the sound of running footsteps can give people a fright.

You can't stop people being anything. You can put them in jail but you won't stop them.

I feel the criticism about men is only going to make things worse. When I'm criticised for something, I just want to say , "f* you then" and not bother at all.

My husband respects me and goes out at night to fetch the shopping or run errands because it is more dangerous for a woman than for a man as men are stronger physically.

And yes cat calling men are annoying and it's disgusting.

Should they? If they have no intent to do anything harmful? Should they assume the woman is fearful? I'm not convinced by that. Yes calling out sexist attitudes, but this I'm not sure on.

If men are told this makes women uncomfortable then continuing to do it is intent to harm. However, they have to know what alarms woman , so teach this at home and school.
People ( NAPALT of course) used to drink and drive with impunity but through education it has become socially unacceptable. Things can change and it starts with the small stuff.

If someone’s behaviour is possibly going to intimidate others then yes they should take steps to reduce that risk.

The woman walking down the street has no idea what the mans intentions are but surely a man who doesn’t want to intimidate wokld change their behaviour to reduce that risk.

I've had men cat call me too. Nothing I can do to change their behaviour just don't react to it.

Of course we can change their behaviour. But for that to happen, we all have to start reacting.

www.today24.news/en/2021/03/in-the-footsteps-of-the-brigade-responsible-for-tracking-down-street-stalkers.html