--protect your daughter--, educate your son"

A little girl at DS1's primary school was murdered by her mother's violent boyfriend. It was horrific. He was about 7 or 8 at the time. I hesitated, but I wasn't happy to answer his horrified "Why would somebody do that??!" with answers about mental illness or vague profferings of "I don't know, I can't understand it either". The man wasn't mentally ill, he was violent and disturbed but that doesn't make him ill, and mental illness isn't something to be afraid of. I told him that some men think that women and children are their property and will stop at nothing to control them.

I would not have introduced that topic so young by choice, and I wish I hadn't had to, but in some ways I'm glad I did. It has given him an understanding and nuance that a lot of men don't have, and he is only 12.

Encouraging them to call out their friends if they’re disrespecting women.
I actually think this is perhaps the most important thing on your list. Its mens job to fix this culture because it's only men who can.

I remember hearing a programme about marriage proposals on the radio once and asked my husband what he'd say if our daughters boyfriend asked him for permission to marry her. I replied (before he had a chance) that I thought the obvious answer would be 'no'. I won't approve of her marring a man who, even for a moment, thinks of her as a chattel to be passed to him from her father. Bit of a tangent but I think all these little 'nice' things add up.

As a mum of boys I think it’s:

• Talking to them about consent, and making that an ongoing conversation as they grow up.
• Equality in the home.. they don’t get a pass on cooking or cleaning or picking up after themselves just because they’re boys.
• Not brushing off bad behaviour because “boys will be boys”.
• Allowing them to cry / be sensitive / have emotions.
• Calling out bad behaviour when we see or hear it; not just from them, but in the news and media as well.
• Encouraging them to call out their friends if they’re disrespecting women.

I have a son and a daughter, both adults. I have only ever brought my children up to be respectful to others, regardless of race/gender/culture etc etc. I have never felt the need to 'sit down' and explain any of this stuff to my kids.

If a situation of inequality/race/gender/consent came up, yes it would be discussed. I think IMHO when you raise your children to be respectful to everyone, these issues surely shouldn't arise? My daughter and her fiancé are very much equals, respect each other. My son, when he was with his girlfriend, was again, kind and respectful (just like she was to him) to her.

And these are two children, whose father is from a culture where women were (still are back home) seen as second class citizens. So they have been raised well, but I am biased

I have been following Sarah's case since she very first went missing, I cannot imagine the pain the family are enduring right now. This is made all the more difficult, knowing that someone you should be able to trust, has committed this atrocity.

My thoughts are with her family and friends right now

How about protect the vulnerable, educate yourself and your peers. It’s immediate. Educate your children smacks of it won’t improve until the next generation grows up. It also removes any responsibility from adults for their behaviour and attitudes.

Not being violent or sexist isn’t enough. Actively calling out all the so called “small stuff” is necessary. Passivity implies condoning.

Men can’t be all I educate my son snd I protect my daughter and then be a bloody sex pest, or a domestic abuser. Or be friends with one. It kind of turns the “I can’t be racist, some of my best friends are xxxx” defence on its head.

I think that a majority of men are respectful towards the women in their lives. But they are not respectful of all women- sex workers, refugees, women of all shapes, women from other cultures....
They might be doting a father and husband but if they are making lewd comments about women's bodies etc then they are part of the problem. All women deserve respect.

@SusannaMorvern 💐

Also educate their fathers. My lovely caring husband whom I lost far too early would get very defensive when I would talk about this type of male behaviour. I think he saw it as a kind of attack on all the decent men out there and to my shame I never really pursued it. The male sex has to own this and take on the task of fixing it. It is no longer enough to say " well I'm not like that " .

@womanity
Because it’s a really weird way to refer to someone’s children unless it’s necessary to distinguish them from birth children.
@IM0GEN

Oh sorry! I see what you mean. I don't really want to say more as it would make them identifiable, but specific circumstances around the adoptions are something that was very relevant to how supportive he has been. But you are right, it read really badly and normally it's not something I would ever think about and certainly wouldn't comment on.

I’ve seen that message too and it’s far too simplistic, imho.
Yes of course, parents have a responsibility to educate their sons.
But as many have already said on this thread attitudes need to change within school (eg girls can’t wear certain things because it will distract the boys, or even male teachers, FFS. How can that even happen still in 2020.)
Porn. How will any attitudes towards women change when boys / men see what they see.
Music lyrics / videos. The music industry also needs to take some responsibility here. There is some pretty misogynistic mainstream stuff that gets played on all the main radio stations for instance.
Finally, the justice system. What hope do we have when current rape conviction rates are so horrendously low; rough sex is used a legitimate defence for murder; and a man can murder his wife and get only 5 years in prison (Anthony Williams).

@SusannaMorvern
I know a guy who is fabulously supportive of his wife, who loves him to bits and he is great with his adopted daughters

My neighbour is great with his vaginally delivered son and his Caesarean section daughter. I have to say I’ve never asked him what position they used when they were conceived, maybe I could drop it in the next conversation over the garden fence.

Am I the only one pissed off by this? Its again putting the onus on women to get men to do the right thing.

I've always interpreted the "protect your daughters educate your sons" message more at dads, actually. As after these types of attacks which get public attention there's often the influx of comments from "good men" about how terrible it is and how they feel the desire to protect their daughters/wives/sisters. It's a response to that. That it's not about being the dad that tries to scare your daughters new boyfriend. It's speaking about and setting an example for your sons of being vehemently anti-sexist.

"I'm just not sure how healthy it is for men to assume as a default that women are suspicious and frightened of them. Doesn't seem like a good basis for healthy relationships."

It's not about assuming women are frightened but just good manners. It's about respecting personal space and not assuming it's totally okay to walk close to a lone woman.

A good analogy I heard this week was a swarm of wasps. I don't assume that every wasp is out to sting me but when there's several around (or just one wasp too close/too persistent) I don't have time to stop and chat to it and work out it's intentions. I just want to be away from it.

Your husband probably doesn't have ill intentions and the woman may not mind him walking behind her. But in a situation where a woman is vulnerable (alone at night rather than in Sainsbury's at lunchtime) then it's just good manners not to act like a wasp.

If you're not displaying good manners then a woman will think you're creepy. Men SHOULD assume a woman will find him frightening and suspicious IF he's not displaying good manners and being generally considerate and polite.

If I thought someone was randomly talking about me and my adopted children instead of me and my children, I’d be gutted.

Article by Julie Bindel today.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/men-are-being-radicalised-by-the-incel-movement

he is great with his adopted daughters
How is he with his birth daughters?

He doesn't have any (or sons), why?

I have both daughters and sons. Unfortunately I’m worried for both. But yes I am fucking fed up with every time my son does something wrong or naughty everyone says ‘that’s just boys being boys though’ ffs no 😱. Likewise girls are called bitchy or victim blamed for male behaviour etc and both of mine need to learn about what a healthy dynamic and relationship is - as they are not going to get it from society or porn or anything

I spoke to my husband about this and I said to him, would your friends just touch a girls bum in a club or yell after a girl and he said, yes a few in his group have done this in the past and he never liked it, so I asked him: did you call them out? His response was no & that's where men need to be educated including my husband to actually his friends this behaviour needs to stop.

It's not just about being violent or raping a woman.

Sorry VAWG

Our children are surrounded by a toxic culture, we need to work hard to counteract that.

Over the last few days I’ve had many conversations with my teenagers about #notallmen #yesallwomen “ women stay at home and stay safe” etc .

We talk about misogyny and racism, sex and consent, porn, WAVG.

I'm just not sure how healthy it is for men to assume as a default that women are suspicious and frightened of them. Doesn't seem like a good basis for healthy relationships.

Again, it's not about assuming that all women are suspicious and frightened of them its about realising that some women might be and acting accordingly.

Educating our sons absolutely IS essential. And of course, this should be done by both parents, but we all know that realistically, it's going to start with women. Which is a pity because realistically, the more it's done by men, the more likely it is to have an impact.

The truth is that all the really bad stuff starts with the smaller stuff. It starts with horrible, misogynist comments from men that other men don't call out. Starting with small boys being told not to "thow like a girl" or "cry like a girl" or, my personal favourite, "it's just boys being boys" as they kick and hit and scratch.

And it continues. What man hasn't stood in a pub while another man has made some comment to a woman walking past? even if the man isn't the one making the comment, how often do they say, "Hey, stop that" rather than just laughing or, at best, looking away?

Like a PP I've been teaching DS about consent since he was a toddler. He is bigger and stronger than all the girls, and most of the boys. I often get people a bit shocked that I do this. But he needs to understand that he IS bigger and stronger and that means that even if he doesn't mean to, he could hurt someone or make them afraid without even realising it.

The outcome is that I keep getting told by other parents, particularly parents of girls, that DS often jumps in to protect/stop things. Because he's only 10 but if he can understand how physically overwhelming people who are smaller and weaker than you isn't okay, it's hard to understand how grown men find this so hard to understand.

he is great with his adopted daughters
How is he with his birth daughters?