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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help me respond to a captured hospital please!

144 replies

timeforsheroes · 12/03/2021 17:12

I've nc'd because I made the FOI request in my own name, and these people are also my employer Shock

i asked for the EIAs on 'supporting gender transitioning at work' and 'transgender care' i.e. staff policy and patient policy. I asked what considerations were given to the PCs of sex and religion. I asked who was consulted re these documents, and what was done to ensure all stakeholders were consulted before the documents were approved.

This is the abridged reply: Relevant stakeholders were consulted, involving Trans staff, Encompass network and [local LGBT charity]. These documents were also discussed with management and staff side representatives.

The Trust is alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Transgender rights and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. However these views are deemed to be transphobic. We have a duty to protect transgender patients and staff from discrimination harassment and victimisation and promote good relations between protected groups. We provide Trans Awareness training for staff to promote understanding to support implementation of these guidance documents.

Trans members of the LGBT+ staff network were invited to comment and consult on the documents by open invitation- to all staff on LGBT+ staff network circulation list were contacted

Both EIA checklist gender but not sex, and have 'positive' against gender reassignment and gender, and 'n/a' against all the other PCs. the patient policy EIA includes this gem:

If there is a negative impact on any of the groups, are you able to justify it, if so how? The Trust needs to be alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Trans needs and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. These attitudes are deemed to be transphobic and based on misunderstanding. The rights of one group are not allowed to impede the human rights of another protected group. As the guidance states, any transphobic abuse from staff or other patients and families must be submitted through incident reporting, as this is a possible hate crime. Staff will be subject to a disciplinary procedure.

Shock Angry Shock

i feel like I've been punched. This is my employer. And the hospital I and my DC and my mum would be taken to if we get ill. Please help me to respond, I'm so gutted they approved this crap, and replied like this, I can't think straight.

OP posts:
Tibtom · 13/03/2021 00:58

Isn't there a review somewhere on here of a similar EQIA done in Devon or Somerset which laid out the issues?

Tibtom · 13/03/2021 00:56

It's just a hospital ward

Funny how we get told 'its just one word' 'just two words' 'just a hospital ward' 'just a piece of paper' yet TRAs get very upset when the one word/two words/hospital ward/piece of paper is not to their liking. If it is just a ward then why are TW not happy alongside other men on their ward?

Wearywithteens · 13/03/2021 00:30

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Shedbuilder · 13/03/2021 00:21

It's great you've got that in writing from them. It shows a complete lack of awareness of the Equality Act 2010 and if a member of staff would like to take them on — either a woman who can show that her rights have been breached, or a member of a religious faith that doesn't permit shared facilities with males — I think they'd be in trouble. Maya's case is surely pertinent as well as the MoJ?

DIshedUp · 13/03/2021 00:10

@Gottalife a seriously sick TW can go in the mens ward/bay or a side room. Why do they need a bed alongside women?

The comparison to a nunnery is unusual, usually that would be used in a sexual context? Thats part of the pointwise, women who have a religious reason to he separated from men should be allowed that? Women in hospitals are incredibly vulnerable.

Gottalife · 12/03/2021 23:19

[quote ColourMagic]@Evarish wrote: ..... "Most cis women are perfectly fine or don't give a damn about trans women in women's spaces."

Who the hell are you to claim that? You didn't ask any women what we think/feel about having men in our safe spaces. We are Women ('cis' can go to hell, it is NOT our word).

I am a Woman and I don't want men in what should be a safe space of a women's hospital ward when I am sick and vulnerable.
.[/quote]
What? Not even medical, housekeeping or maintenance staff, or a seriously sick TW? It's just a hospital ward not a bloody nunnery.

timeforsheroes · 12/03/2021 23:11

Thank you, you nest of vipers Flowers

I will do something, I don't know what yet but I will take in all the helpful info on the thread and decide what to do next with a clearer head.

I won't lie, I am scared because whatever I do will most likely lead to them realising that I'm staff. I am my children's only living parent, I'm the only breadwinner and only carer. And with a response this bad I'm scared for my job Sad

I don't want to name the Trust here, because I'm scared to, but this is not a small out of the way local hospital led astray by knowing no better than to put their faith in the misinformation of lobby groups. It's a very large, internationally lauded teaching hospital, full of world experts in various branches of medicine and research. It's not a Stonewall champion, though the university it is a teaching hospital for is.

I know the EIA and the FOI response read like they were completed by a lobby group, but even if they were, this would have been signed off by so many people in the Trust - HR, maybe unions, information governance, equalities steering group - not one said 'hang on a minute'? I found the policies by following a link in a daily staff briefing email, proudly pointing staff to the newly revised policies in time for LGBT history month. This isn't a wokist in a back office somewhere going rogue without the grown ups knowing. They publicised it, to their several thousand staff, as a good new thing Sad

OP posts:
gardenbird48 · 12/03/2021 22:48

That is horrendous op - both for you at work and as a potential patient. I thought our local policy was bad (if a convicted male sex offender wishes to be placed on a female ward and is deemed a risk to the women they may be prescribed anti-libidinous drugs) but that one takes the prize so far.

North Lanarkshire hospital staff successfully fought against similar policies but it sounds like you’ve got good advice and we’re all here to support in any way we can.

Good luck with your plan of action - keep us updated if you can.

ArabellaScott · 12/03/2021 22:18

Absolutely unbelievable.

Take it to the press, to your MP, to a lawyer, to the NHS as high as you can go. They're using a slur, they're explicitly excluding women/sex as a protected characteristic, they're making a slur against religious beliefs as being transphobic.

This is shocking, OP. Well done for getting it out there, I'm not surprised you're shocked.

Worth considering a solid strategy to take this further, and plenty of knowledgeable people here will be happy to help, I'm sure.

I bloody hope it's not my local NHS!

ChattyLion · 12/03/2021 22:16

OP you must be feeling very shocked by all this. What a terrible response. Due to the seriousness of what it is outlined I would have thought anyone could complain, because female patients and staff would be negatively affected.

This link sets out how to complain (as a patient)

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/health/nhs-and-social-care-complaints/complaining-about-the-nhs/nhs-complaints-procedure/how-to-make-a-complaint-about-nhs-services/

This link sets out the various types of organisations that provide professional support to complainants to the NHS: www.citizensadvice.org.uk/health/nhs-and-social-care-complaints/complaining-about-the-nhs/who-you-can-go-to-when-you-have-a-problem-with-the-nhs/organisations-that-can-help-you-make-a-complaint-about-health-services/

YouSetTheTone · 12/03/2021 22:14

Wow that hospital used the word TERF in a response? That’s beyond appalling. This is funded by the public and should be catering to ALL the needs of society not just one group (trans people).
This needs to go higher. To the Baroness, or your local MP.
Angry

MaudTheInvincible · 12/03/2021 22:04

Yes, the Baroness would be interested I think.

NiceGerbil · 12/03/2021 22:00

'The Trust is alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Transgender rights and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. However these views are deemed to be transphobic.'

Blimey. That's an actual NHS response? Sounds like it was written by another party.

What about baroness thingy. Your MP. Etc.

That guidance is seriously bonkers.

The idea that patients would only object to xyz on religious grounds in bad faith. IE they don't mean it it believe it they're just bigots. WTF?

Aha85 · 12/03/2021 21:52

@TofuDelights

Moses LJ in R (Kaur and Shah) v Ealing LBC [2008] EWHC 2062 (Admin): “The process of assessments should be recorded .... Records contribute to transparency. They serve to demonstrate that a genuine assessment has been carried out at a formative stage." (my emphasis)

They are really not supposed to leave creating the EIA until after creating the policy 🤦‍♀️

Biscuitsanddoombar · 12/03/2021 21:08

In on my phone do can’t link but search for North Somerset in here OP. The hospital tried to pull this bullshit there and there’s a long thread about how they were forced to change their position after interventions from several mumsnetters

lionheart · 12/03/2021 21:03

That response really takes the Biscuit .

As persistentwoman says, it looks as if it was written by an activist.

TofuDelights · 12/03/2021 20:56

Placemarking as I think I'm going to need some of the very important info here when my employer finally completes the EIA for their new policy. You read that right - they have issued the policy before they have done the impact assessment.

Seethefairfromtheair · 12/03/2021 20:40

Dont they know a councillor had to step down for using the t**f slur? Its abuse, sod that.

ChakaDakotaRegina · 12/03/2021 20:27

A hospital is saying that the GC position is the ‘belief’ and the T and non binary position is the reality? FFS.

Could you send this FOI to the chairman and the board of health for the hospital and to the PALs team etc under a pen name? Also to Private Eye?

Skyliner001 · 12/03/2021 20:10

Love their response😊

Umbivalent · 12/03/2021 20:08

Fucking hell that's appalling. I can't believe they used T*. Fucking awful.

Thelnebriati · 12/03/2021 20:07

PencilsInSpace Tue 26-Nov-19 22:40:18
''Public Sector Equality Duty is here:''
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/149

''Instructing, causing or inducing contraventions''
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/111

Thelnebriati · 12/03/2021 20:06

PencilsInSpace Tue 26-Nov-19 22:38:08
''As well as PROHIBITED CONDUCT there are also DUTIES under the EA, primarily the public sector equality duty (PSED).''

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3751152-Only-consenting-to-receiving-medical-treatment-from-a-female-is-not-acceptable?msgid=91885269

Thelnebriati · 12/03/2021 20:05

PencilsInSpace Tue 26-Nov-19
''PROHIBITED CONDUCT UNDER THE EQUALITY ACT

  1. Instructing, causing or inducing contraventions

A service provider is prohibited from instructing its staff to discriminate against, harass or victimise service users. Even if the staff ignore the instruction. Claims can be raised by patients affected by the unlawful policy or by staff who are expected to abide by it, if they have suffered a detriment.

These policies tell HCP to harass and victimise female patients. Staff also may be harassed and/or victimised if they do not follow these policies. These are detriments. See previous posts for examples.

ANY WOMAN SUBJECTED TO THIS TREATMENT HAS A CLAIM FOR INSTRUCTING, CAUSING OR INDUCING CONTRAVENTIONS''
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3751152-Only-consenting-to-receiving-medical-treatment-from-a-female-is-not-acceptable?msgid=91884674

Thelnebriati · 12/03/2021 20:04

''PROHIBITED CONDUCT UNDER THE EQUALITY ACT

  1. Victimisation

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/27

A service provider is prohibited from treating you badly if you make a complaint, raise a grievance or bring proceedings under the equality act, give evidence or information related to someone else's complaint or legal case, make an allegation that someone has contravened the equality act or do any other thing for the purposes of or in connection with this Act Or if you haven't done any of these things but the service provider believes you have or that you might do.

These are called 'protected acts'. You don't have to expressly mention the equality act and you are still protected from victimisation if your complaint or legal case is unsuccessful or if you were mistaken in what the law said or meant. As long as you are acting in good faith you are protected.

Examples of victimisation in this context can include things like:

  • telling off a female patient because she says she feels uncomfortable and anxious about being on the same ward as a male patient
  • moving her off the ward because she complains
  • disciplining a HCP for preventing harassment of female patients
  • disciplining a HCP for questioning one of these policies
  • receiving a written request from a patient that the service provider use a single sex exception, making clear her consent to be treated by female HCP for mammography, cervical smears or any other intimate procedure and withdrawing blanket consent in advance for situations where this is not possible, and then including those letters (edited to misrepresent) in your publicly available policy as examples of 'highly discriminatory' 'unacceptable communications' which must be referred to the 'Equality, Inclusion and Diversity team'

ANY WOMAN SUBJECTED TO THIS TREATMENT HAS A CLAIM FOR VICTIMISATION''
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3751152-Only-consenting-to-receiving-medical-treatment-from-a-female-is-not-acceptable?msgid=91883197#91883197