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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help me respond to a captured hospital please!

144 replies

timeforsheroes · 12/03/2021 17:12

I've nc'd because I made the FOI request in my own name, and these people are also my employer Shock

i asked for the EIAs on 'supporting gender transitioning at work' and 'transgender care' i.e. staff policy and patient policy. I asked what considerations were given to the PCs of sex and religion. I asked who was consulted re these documents, and what was done to ensure all stakeholders were consulted before the documents were approved.

This is the abridged reply: Relevant stakeholders were consulted, involving Trans staff, Encompass network and [local LGBT charity]. These documents were also discussed with management and staff side representatives.

The Trust is alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Transgender rights and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. However these views are deemed to be transphobic. We have a duty to protect transgender patients and staff from discrimination harassment and victimisation and promote good relations between protected groups. We provide Trans Awareness training for staff to promote understanding to support implementation of these guidance documents.

Trans members of the LGBT+ staff network were invited to comment and consult on the documents by open invitation- to all staff on LGBT+ staff network circulation list were contacted

Both EIA checklist gender but not sex, and have 'positive' against gender reassignment and gender, and 'n/a' against all the other PCs. the patient policy EIA includes this gem:

If there is a negative impact on any of the groups, are you able to justify it, if so how? The Trust needs to be alert to the potential that a minority of colleagues or other patients may not understand Trans needs and may use either their religion or their belief as being Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminists (TERFs) to object to the guidance. These attitudes are deemed to be transphobic and based on misunderstanding. The rights of one group are not allowed to impede the human rights of another protected group. As the guidance states, any transphobic abuse from staff or other patients and families must be submitted through incident reporting, as this is a possible hate crime. Staff will be subject to a disciplinary procedure.

Shock Angry Shock

i feel like I've been punched. This is my employer. And the hospital I and my DC and my mum would be taken to if we get ill. Please help me to respond, I'm so gutted they approved this crap, and replied like this, I can't think straight.

OP posts:
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JuneFromBethesda · 02/07/2021 09:56

Good for you @timeforsheroes. Good luck and all power to you. This thread is shocking.

Tibtom · 02/07/2021 09:40

If you make foi via whatdotheyknow then the replies are public (although someone still needs to find them)

timeforsheroes · 02/07/2021 09:01

yeahbut I am healthcare workers, this is my employer! And since I made my FOI I have personally cared for an under 18 female-bodied person whose medical record says they are male. This person's condition means they could potentially come into hospital unable to communicate, and as things stand they would be put in a bay with male-bodied adults. This is not okay with me.

OhHolyJesus my MP is the most pathetic line-toeing, overpromoted privileged white male imaginable, he doesn't even have the wit to reply to the letters I send him, just sends me the crib sheet from party head office which doesn't address my questions. I have stuck my head above the parapet at work re the vulnerable patient, but got nowhere. It's depressing.

OP posts:
Thecatonthemat · 01/07/2021 18:17

yeahbutnaw another day harassing women on the thread that you really don’t like reading eh?

OhHolyJesus · 01/07/2021 16:38

Thanks for the update OP, I'm sure the admin staff assigned to deal with FOIs will have some good reasons as to why this is not in the public interest Hmm

Has this gone directly to them on email?

Also have you seen the crowd resourced research from SFW? You could escalate this outside of the NHS trust with your MP. (The Police bit could go to your PCC too.)

https://www.standingforwomen.com/nhs-and-police-report

yeahbutnaw · 01/07/2021 16:29

Another day harassing healthcare workers?

timeforsheroes · 01/07/2021 16:16

Update - I waited for my FOI to appear in the hospital's FOI log on their website, so someone other than me could take it up. The log for the time I make my FOI is now out. And mine isn't there. The small print says they publish FOIs that are in the public interest, apparently that includes ones to which every answer is 'no, we don't use that piece of equipment', but not ones which explain how you are akin to a racist if you don't want male-bodied people on a female ward.

I have made another FOI request, this one asking how they decide which FOIs get published. Hmm

OP posts:
gardenbird48 · 16/03/2021 13:01

or in the case of poor Sarah Harding from Girls Aloud - she went into hospital to have surgery for her terminal cancer (she's had a terrible time apparently) and there was an older man with dementia on the ward who wandered around threatening to beat people up.

Sarah, post surgery, chemo, radiotherapy, dying of cancer had a thin curtain between her and a potentially violent man and that seems to be acceptable to the hospital - it just beggars belief!! Humanity in caring seems to be lacking somewhat.

gardenbird48 · 16/03/2021 12:58

How is this in any way right or good for this poor woman? We have no idea how the man feels about this, while he's probably less physically afraid he's probably not much more relaxed or comfortable from a privacy and dignity point of view.

indeed, she said he has apologised for 'invading her quiet space' so he seems to be considerate which is some help but obviously doesn't make it ok.

It distresses me greatly that it seems to be down to 'luck of the draw' now - the hospital is ignoring safeguarding and apparently just hoping for the best that this guy doesn't get tempted to become a molester.

MichelleofzeResistance · 16/03/2021 10:45

That poor woman.

As she says: (and is with a male who identifies as a man, a straight forward mixed sex room) he may be lovely. There's no knowing.

Even if he is definitely safe and lovely: her body is in a state of high stress, signalling that she is vulnerable in an enclosed space with an unknown male, she feels unsafe, and she not only can't sleep but desperately just wants to leave the situation. (Having had a possible stroke.)

How is this in any way right or good for this poor woman? We have no idea how the man feels about this, while he's probably less physically afraid he's probably not much more relaxed or comfortable from a privacy and dignity point of view.

gardenbird48 · 16/03/2021 10:40

I think we all need to shout about this while we are well.

It is so difficult to advocate for your needs while you are seriously ill in hospital.

Contact MPs and Hospital Trusts and challenge them and their policies.

Attached is the NHS Same Sex Accommodation constitution (I don't think this has already been posted?). It states that Single Sex Accommodation must be delivered and any breaches recorded and mitigated (obviously in the above case they are not even doing that) but then in Annexe B (transgender patients), they completely contradict Single Sex provision and use the false Stonewall version of the law to justify mixed sex.

improvement.nhs.uk/documents/6005/Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf

gardenbird48 · 16/03/2021 10:35

there's an AIBU from a poor lady who went into hospital overnight and has been put in a room with a man. She has a history of trauma and is very distressed about the situation to the point of wanting to discharge herself before an essential MRI.

This is where it ends up....

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4193314-For-feeling-very-vulnerable-thinking-about-discharging-myself?watched=1&msgid=105609737#105609737

MaudTheInvincible · 16/03/2021 09:22

Okay, great. Thanks Watermonster

Watermonster · 16/03/2021 09:19

@MaudTheInvincible
if relevant (for example the entire reply from the hospital to @timeforsheroes!)

MaudTheInvincible · 15/03/2021 21:18

Thanks for that link persistentwoman. I hadn't seen that one.

MaudTheInvincible · 15/03/2021 21:09

Also please send any complaint responses from hospitals or gov to nic at fpfw as well as baroness n

Should we do this for all of them? I've had a few back now.

Watermonster · 15/03/2021 20:29

NHs England now gives all males the choice of female wards based on clothing choice or gender identity. Pse read 'delivering single sex accommodation annex b 'if you didn't realise this .No consideration for women's privacy dignity or safety.

persistentwoman · 15/03/2021 19:18

@Watermonster

The gov is receiving a fair bit of input about single sex wards at present. worth asking your mp to write in. There are a few outstanding foi requests you can see on 'what do you know' for nhs england raising relevant issues. Use word 'stonewall'to narrow down..gov says nhs england is reviewing the policy but using an Lgbti male to do it. Also please send any complaint responses from hospitals or gov to nic at fpfw as well as baroness n
Sorry if this was posted earlier but this allowed me to raise the issue of unrepresentative groups like Stonewall being given 'privileged' access to the NHS in order to remove women's rights to single sex hospital wards, sex based language for healthcare etc. It was very therapeutic:

www.gov.uk/government/news/government-launches-call-for-evidence-to-improve-health-and-wellbeing-of-women-in-england

Watermonster · 15/03/2021 19:13

The gov is receiving a fair bit of input about single sex wards at present. worth asking your mp to write in. There are a few outstanding foi requests you can see on 'what do you know' for nhs england raising relevant issues. Use word 'stonewall'to narrow down..gov says nhs england is reviewing the policy but using an Lgbti male to do it.
Also please send any complaint responses from hospitals or gov to nic at fpfw as well as baroness n

Watermonster · 15/03/2021 19:04

@timeforsheroes I will send you a pm

DayBath · 15/03/2021 12:32

Following this with interest. OP please remember that while your efforts are admirable you shouldn't have to risk your job security for this. I second the PP who suggested a well known campaigner could take this up on your behalf. I'm sure FOI responses get leaked all the time and could find their way into the right hands. Wink

gardenbird48 · 15/03/2021 10:57

@NiceGerbil

Trans men seem to be fairly quiet on this.

My understanding is that no trans men have been placed in a male prison because of the risk to them. I am willing to be corrected on that.

Trans men are female. In general they will be smaller than the vast majority of men. They are not a physical threat to them, if anything it's vice versa. As females they are statistically a very low risk of being voyeurs/ sexual predators etc.

It's a totally different dynamic.

If a trans man feels they pass and in more controlled circs anyone controlling things agrees then there's no harm to men of putting them in with the men.

In practice many seem to opt for female stuff.

And I would hate TMAM to mean that any female who had a male gender id would automatically go on male wards etc even if they presented as 'femme' ie female.

Trans men get raised by people who argue TWAW a lot as a 'gotcha' but it's not. Totally different situation and you don't hear nearly so much from them.

exactly. I think there was an awful case where a transman was raped in a taxi. The rapist didn't really care about the gender identity of the person he realised was female - it made no difference to him.

The issue in general isn't with trans people - it is with male people. We want and need to exclude male people from our single sex spaces regardless of how they identify.

Someone being trans should not override the biological fact of their sex. Their sex is immutable and changing an identity does not meaningfully change any other aspect of a person.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 15/03/2021 10:38

My understanding is that no trans men have been placed in a male prison because of the risk to them. I am willing to be corrected on that.

As in other areas like rugby, for example, transmen are not placed in a male environment as it, and I quote "would be dangerous for them" and, in rugby, male players shouldn't be placed in a position to do egregious harm to a femal playing rugby.

It show up all sorts of hipocrasy but mainly shows that ALL organisations, captured or not, recognise a woman when they want to / fear being sued!

highame · 15/03/2021 10:28

I think our Public Services, in their entirety, are out of control. They seem to have become States within a State. The only way around this is for a public enquiry. Sorry haven't RTFT but hopefully people have made these sorts of comments

MeltsAway · 14/03/2021 21:51

All the evidence (and it's interesting that this seems to have stopped in recent years - wonder why?) is that women and men dislike mixed sex hospital wards and women feel unsafe in them.

You only have to read a few of the fairly regular AIBU threads "Should partners be allowed into maternity wards all the time?" and a number of women's experiences of intrusive, peering, inappropriate or gawping behaviour by other women's male partners on maternity wards.

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