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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dr Jane Clare Jones on Twitter this morning

89 replies

CaveMum · 11/03/2021 10:24

This thread says everything for me. I’ve shared it across all my own social media this morning.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1369914137090854914.html

OP posts:
FindTheTruth · 12/03/2021 10:47

So I just came back to this thread to find the JCJ thread to post on the horrible AIBU 'The men I know feel like this too'.

and guess what? it's been deleted. 🤬

FFS

Helleofabore · 12/03/2021 08:13

Sex offence!! Damn you autocorrect...

Helleofabore · 12/03/2021 08:12

That means that it's unlikely that as many as half of all transgender prisoners have been convicted of a sexual offence - once you take into account those trans prisoners who weren't surveyed.

Right... so what Shizuku has posted questions the high % of trans prisoners being in jail for sex offences overall.

Yet, all Shizuku has posted has not, in any way, dispelled that transwomen commit crimes less than males and it certainly still does not indicate that they stop committing the same types of crime as males.

And as others have pointed out. It only takes someone with basic maths to still point out there the rate of sexist offence is NOTHING like that of a woman even if there are more transwomen hidden in the statistics of other crimes because no one knows their sex.

Surely, to be adequately able to dispel such a conclusion, statistics should be accurate.

And is someone trying to tell us that these are not transwomen at all? That we shouldn’t accept someone is who they say they are?

Are you really trying to tell us that Shizuku?

334bu · 12/03/2021 07:53

No mathematician but even if transwomen were as high as 2% of the male population in England and Wales the difference is stark.
Women 125 out of approximately 28,000,000
Transwomen 76 out of 560,000.
Apples and oranges spring to mind

OldCrone · 12/03/2021 02:01

That means that it's unlikely that as many as half of all transgender prisoners have been convicted of a sexual offence - once you take into account those trans prisoners who weren't surveyed.

That's not really the point though is it? Here are the figures again.

76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

There are 125 women in prison for sex offences and 76 transwomen. But there are many more women than transwomen, so transwomen are evidently much more likely to commit sex offences than women are. It's less clear whether they are more or less likely than men to commit sex offences. We'd need an estimate of the total number of transwomen in the UK to calculate that.

NiceGerbil · 12/03/2021 01:43

Remember that tweet where some bloke said people should give money to trans women for cabs and said can you imagine how it feels to be afraid to get home on your own etc etc

And a million women said. Hold on a fucking minute. We don't need to imagine this!

unwashedanddazed · 12/03/2021 01:35

Anyway, irrelevant derailments aside, Jane Clare Jones is bloody brilliant. Thanks for posting OP.

Xpectations · 11/03/2021 22:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WhereYouLeftIt · 11/03/2021 22:28

"Trans women aren't male, but if you want evidence, try this study:"

If you really want to persuade people to your point of view, this is not the way to do it. Starting with an obvious lie (delusion) just tarnishes everything that follows. Personally, I didn't bother to read the rest of your post because - well, it's just going to be more lies, isn't it?

So I can only conclude that you are not acting in good faith. An obvious lie is not meant to persuade people, it is meant to goad. To prod people into an exasperated response that you can turn into a screenshot; "all the better to demonise you with, my dear!".

I find that rather sad Sad.

Helleofabore · 11/03/2021 21:48

Trans women aren't male, but if you want evidence, try this study

Making someone’s body cosmetically more congruent and hormonally more congruent with the opposite sex does not in anyway make them the other sex.

You know, of course, that if a person stopped cross sex hormones and other drugs and the person still had working organs to produce the hormones the body was programmed to produce, the body would produce the hormones to suit the body the person was born in.

Would you recommend that transwoman have female on their medical records?

If they are not male, what sex are you suggesting they are.

And you study that you linked did not prove the statement that transwomen are not male.

allmywhat · 11/03/2021 21:45

You have much to learn about trans people and about sex.

how is babby formed? How girl get pragnent?

flowery · 11/03/2021 21:19

”You have much to learn about trans people and about sex.”

🤣🤣🤣

I think you have much to learn about how babies are made. A transwoman and a woman could make a baby because one of them is male and the other one is female. A transwoman and a man could not. Because they are both male.

Sexnotgender · 11/03/2021 21:08

You have much to learn about trans people and about sex.

All the lols 😂

allmywhat · 11/03/2021 21:06

Transmisogyny

You forgot to put the space in!

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/03/2021 21:03

The PLoS paper has been discussed a number of times and putting this search string to an SE will retrieve many of them:

site:mumsnet.com journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 21:01

@flowery

”Trans women aren't male”

Eh? Of course they are. That’s the whole point of being transgender- having a gender identity that you feel doesn’t align with your sex. If they were female they wouldn’t be transgender.

You have much to learn about trans people and about sex.
flowery · 11/03/2021 20:57

”Trans women aren't male”

Eh? Of course they are. That’s the whole point of being transgender- having a gender identity that you feel doesn’t align with your sex. If they were female they wouldn’t be transgender.

Sexnotgender · 11/03/2021 20:55

Trans women aren't male

What are they then? Why are they trans?

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 20:54

@ArabellaScott

Any evidence that transwomen are any less likely to commit sexual or violent offending than any other male?

Male violence remains male violence.

Women can't 'identify' out of it, unfortunately. And the gender identity of the person attacking them means little: men are larger, stronger, and an attack by a male can also carry the danger of unwanted pregnancy.

I'm not scared of lesbians, is the root of it. I am scared of males.

Trans women aren't male, but if you want evidence, try this study:

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

And here you can see the lead scientist, Cecilia Dhejne, discussing the results:

www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

Dhejne: The individual in the image who is making claims about trans criminality, specifically rape likelihood, is misrepresenting the study findings. The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

As to the criminality metric itself, we were measuring and comparing the total number of convictions, not conviction type. We were not saying that cisgender males are convicted of crimes associated with marginalization and poverty. We didn’t control for that and we were certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk. What we were saying was that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group, both experienced similar rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in the 1989 to 2003 cohort group.

The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse.

Also, you might want to read this with regards to trans prisoners:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

The 125 transgender prisoners counted in the survey are more likely to be serving longer sentences.

That's because prisoners serving shorter sentences are less likely to have a case conference - so are less likely to be counted.

The MoJ explained that prisoners serving long sentences are more likely to be serving time for sexual offences than those on shorter sentences.

Trans prisoners on shorter sentences - who won't be in the survey - are less likely to be sex offenders.

That means that it's unlikely that as many as half of all transgender prisoners have been convicted of a sexual offence - once you take into account those trans prisoners who weren't surveyed.

IsabelleSE19 · 11/03/2021 20:20

No worries! Amazing how a slight change of wording completely changes a meaning. I thought that with all our recent training to be vigilant on this point, it would have been spotted!

The worst thing is that I was reading it in a hurry because I was supposed to be doing my job – proofreading!

UppityPuppity · 11/03/2021 16:12

Sorry Uppity – read it in such a hurry I failed to spot the difference!

No worries! Amazing how a slight change of wording completely changes a meaning. I thought that with all our recent training to be vigilant on this point, it would have been spotted!Smile

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 11/03/2021 16:09

@SisterWendyBuckett

There seems to be a lot of anger around today because women and their bodies are being centred.
Yes.

The primary importance of stating NAMALT rather than addressing the actual matter at hand is strong in this thread at present:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4189216-too-many-men

SisterWendyBuckett · 11/03/2021 16:07

There seems to be a lot of anger around today because women and their bodies are being centred.

IsabelleSE19 · 11/03/2021 14:48

Sorry Uppity – read it in such a hurry I failed to spot the difference! Blush

ArabellaScott · 11/03/2021 14:45

Thanks, Signal. Yes, that's not hugely reassuring.