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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Conversion therapy uproar- can anyone explain this article for me?

32 replies

TeaSoakedDisasterMagnet · 11/03/2021 09:23

I know very little about the current trans debates/arguments/ whatever but I’m really confused this morning. I’ve just read this BBC article this morning and I feel like I’m massively missing out on all sorts of nuances.

Can anyone explain this situation to me simply please? As in I thought TRA would be pleased that conversion therapy is in line for being stopped, but I’m getting the impression they’re not happy about it.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56353313

OP posts:
KihoBebiluPute · 11/03/2021 09:47

The problem is that for a teen experiencing mixed feelings as their sexuality develops, it is often going to be unclear for a time how they will eventually feel comfortable describing themselves.

The same person might end up describing themselves as very much a woman, who prefers to present in a "masculine" way and has tastes and preferences which are close to male stereotypes than female, or may end up deciding to describe themselves as a man who happens to have been accidentally born with female organs, which they may or may not want to have removed surgically. Or they may describe themselves as non-binary or some other innovative identity. (obviously similar scenarios could equally occur swapping around male and female in the above description for a biologically male person). It is entirely normal and expected that someone might "try on" more than one of these options during adolesence and early adulthood before they find a way to describe and present themselves that feels comfortable and authentic.

When it comes to conversion therapy, anyone who is a wholehearted supporter of trans identities might consider that asking someone to consider whether they aren't actually trans, but that one of the other options might suit them better, sounds like it could be "conversion therapy" whereas to other people, suggesting to a butch lesbian girl that she would fit into the world better as a heterosexual man also sounds like "conversion therapy".

The waters are further muddied with concepts like the "Cotton ceiling" - i.e. telling lesbian girls that if they don't accept fellow lesbians who just happen to have a penis into their dating pool, they are being transphobic. To some, that is conversion therapy by another name as it is forcing someone to effectively be bisexual/pansexual rather than homosexual.

Conversion therapy is real and has caused immense damage over centuries - gay people have been subjected to awful "treatments" to make them become heterosexual. Some have claimed it "worked" and they are "cured". Others have been deeply traumatised and damaged. So legislation is certainly needed, but how it should be worded is not clearcut or obvious and whatever way it is worded, there are going to be some groups who think it is wrong. This shouldn't be an excuse to do nothing, but I can totally understand why it is taking a long time to make it happen.

QuentinWinters · 11/03/2021 09:37

This documentary is old but interesting about the different approaches and what Zuckers "conversion therapy" actually entailed. Well worth watching
watchdocumentaries.com/transgender-kids-who-knows-best/

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 11/03/2021 09:37

The three who have resigned (two weeks before the roles came to an end anyway) include two trans activists:

Conversion therapy uproar- can anyone explain this article for me?
QuentinWinters · 11/03/2021 09:34

Historically some trans rights activists have classed any kind of therapy other than affirmative therapy (where a person's trans identity is not examined in therapy) as conversion therapy.
That led to a doctor in Canada (Kenneth Zucker) being sacked from the national gender clinic. The affirmative approach practiced in this country led to the Tavistock gender clinic losing a case recently where the complainant (Keira Bell) argued that she had been treated for gender issues without adequate investigation leading to inappropriate treatment with lifelong consequences.

The Conservative party initially said they would ban conversion therapy for sexuality, so for lesbian, gay and bisexual people. Trans activists want gender identity included but given the scenarios above the Conservatives are dragging their heels on whether to do that.

nauticant · 11/03/2021 09:32

Fundamentally it's that LGB are related in that they are sexual orientations while T is different in that its an identity.

Conversion therapy for LGB means coercion for those people to at least stop engaging in homosexuality or even to enter into a heterosexual relationship. This could even involve drug treatments.

Conversion therapy of T means ... Well, it seems to mean different things, but overall it would seem to mean not being completely on board with affirmation therapy. In other words, for T conversion therapy means not rushing ahead with a transition, ie a conversion.

The debate is about LGBT but the substance is all about LGB. Just about everyone sensible opposes conversion therapy for LGB. But the debate is very vague indeed when it comes to T because people don't actually know what they're arguing for. So you have a lot of heat but little light because in this busy debate people are not being clear about how this relates to T and this is being presented as being unfair to T.

bellinisurge · 11/03/2021 09:27

TRAs know that we see them. While obviously nobody agrees with subjecting a gay man or lesbian to conversion therapy, daring to suggest to a troubled teen in therapy that they might be gay rather than trans appears also to count as "conversion therapy ".

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 11/03/2021 09:25

There are currently two threads on this which you may find useful:

Govt LGBT+ advisors quit - criticising Liz Truss
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4188623-govt-lgbt-advisors-quit-criticising-liz-truss

Gov't Equality Adviser quits.
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4188787-Govt-Equality-Adviser-quits