Worried about independence under the SNP

My vote always puts women’s rights first, has done since I became a mother and I vote floatingly depending on women’s issues. I think a pp that said men would not be expected to put their rights to one side for a greater cause are right. We are 50% of the population

Why the fuck would we even want independence? What is being offered - the chance to live in a country where women must sit patiently while the government works out what we can call ourselves, how we can talk about men?

Sorry, OP, I am absolutely fuming after yesterday and none of my anger is directed at anybody here, just at the Scottish government.

I actually think that they would stand a better chance of getting independence if they said that after gaining it they would disband

Yes, indeed, and why do you think they have never so much as hinted that they would do this? Odd, really.

Women have a tendency to be self-sacrificing. I can see a lot of discussion on social media that boils down to 'I will put the country's interests first'.

Remember that women are 50% of the country, too. I know lots of women who would wonder whether it was their duty to put the country first for independence in this situation. However, when I think about my male friends, I think that if you asked them to make the same sacrifice, they would incline to the view that a country that required that sacrifice wasn't a country worth doing it for.

If you wouldn't expect men, or any other class of person, to do this, it is not a sacrifice for independence that women should make either.

Never. They are in this for the power. They are a mixed bag, alright, with wildly varying ability as well as values. Too many have latched onto the SNP because they see it as an easy way to make a political career. They'll never disband. They will say whatever it takes to get elected.

I actually think that they would stand a better chance of getting independence if they said that after gaining it they would disband. I know many many people who are torn because they want independence but hate SNP and don't want to vote for them.
I do think it would be a natural thing rather than a conscious decision though as politicians who have differing viewpoints naturally slip away to another party when they realise that the main thing keeping them with SNP has been achieved.

'Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship.' - 1984, current SNP policy apparently based on

I'm not convinced many SNP politicians have political convictions beyond independence.

My hope would be that shortly after independence the SNP would eventually disband

Never. They are in this for the power. They are a mixed bag, alright, with wildly varying ability as well as values. Too many have latched onto the SNP because they see it as an easy way to make a political career. They'll never disband. They will say whatever it takes to get elected.

It is my impression that a large part of the push for independence is so that SNP can stay in charge of everything. Given their totalitarian approach and penchant for bending truth and rules to suit themselves I can’t see how democracy is suddenly going to flourish and benefit women. I’m not aware of any other significant parties that are in a position to advocate for women’s rights in Scotland so what would change under independence?

Especially as Humza is already making it illegal for women to advocate for their rights at all.

Oops, his post too soon. Was going to finish by saying that I'm prepared to fight for women's rights and independence. I want both.

There is absolutely no way in any shape or form I will be voting for the SNP come May or any other election. I will be voting pro Union. (I was previously pro Independence and have voted SNP/Green in the past).

Can you imagine what this shower would do for us?

Women would be 2nd class citizens in an independent Scotland, and the majority of MSPs just don't seem to understand this nor care.

I will absolutely be voting for independence. They are two separate issues. My hope would be that shortly after independence the SNP would eventually disband because so many of their politicians actually have differing values but are brought together by their desire for independence. If they then aligned themselves to other Scottish parties I think these would become far stronger and we would have a stronger government as a result, with opposition parties that are actually strong enough to hold whoever is in power to account. Even if the SNP didn't disband, after independence I believe they would become weaker as many would leave the party to join parties more aligned with their values. I'm prepared to fight foe women's rights

Why? What are the SNP going to do?

If I were Scottish, I would not be voting for independence right now. When someone shows you who they are, believe them

If the SNP get independence then they are the party in power setting up the structures of governance, the safeguards and reviewing of legislation - or not. They will been the main lead on writing any constitution. It won't simply be the hate crime bill that would need reviewing. Do you not think their attitude to women and fawning towards certain groups would be reflected in these new structures and founding documents? That the corruption of language would embedded? These things would not be so easy, and maybe not possible, to change.

I saw someone ask something on twitter which I think bears repeating here.

If it was men's rights in a similar capacity (other MNers will come up with good parallels to the situation for women) that were under threat, would he take the risk for independence?

Women's issues are always an afterthought. Something we'll deal with later, once we'll got the big issues sorted out. You'd think we were a tiny minority, and not 50% of the population, sometimes.

So, again, if it was his rights, the rights of your sons, brothers, and fathers, would you vote SNP and trust this could be put right once they were out?

If you would, that's fine. But if you wouldn't, why are you placing less value on yourself and other women than you do men?