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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The cognitive dissonance from 'TWAW' women

342 replies

CheeryTreeBlossom · 10/03/2021 23:45

I've seen a few things today on social media which got me thinking: How do "liberal" feminists square up the argument that being a women is a feeling vs the experience we all know?

  1. The awful disappearance of Sarah Everard has led to an outpouring on twitter of women highlighting how they are essentially bound by a curfew all the time (and not just when the police "helpfully suggest" it) and feel the fear of being followed/harassed/assaulted by men in public constantly.

  2. Kamala Harris posted a video on Instagram about the 2.5million women how have left the workforce in the US (similar stats on Guardian about the UK) and it's driven by women being in lower paid work and not having access to childcare when schools close.

  3. This scene from Fleabag appeared on my Facebook feed where Kristin Scott Thomas gives a powerful speech about how women are constantly affected by their bodies through the start of menstruation to menopause. Lots of positive articles from the time it aired:
    www.refinery29.com/en-gb/fleabag-season-2-episode-3

And yet these same women would call others bigots for saying biology matters and instead that feelings are more important to being a woman than anything else?
That to dislike finding myself in an enclosed public space with someone visibly male is phobic, and that our reproductively system has a huge impact in our lives and why women are still discriminated against?

Argh. I'm just sick of being the only one in my friends group that seems to see the hypocrisy.
They say JKR is a nasty transphobe but equally complain about the patriarchy and how childcare costs put women put of work Hmm

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/03/2021 18:15

Yes I agree the many TWAW women in the Green Party are prime examples.

lifeturnsonadime · 12/03/2021 18:13

And the award for cognitive dissonance goes to the Green Party who are calling for a curfew of men at 6pm in the same week as voting against women's rights.

Apparently men who ID as women are not a risk.

mobile.twitter.com/TheGreenParty/status/1370430900186578945

RootyT00t · 12/03/2021 18:04

I can see your point, in the same way teachers are investigated even though we are not all terrible humans etc etc.

Gender is a more delicate topic though isn't it.

bellinisurge · 12/03/2021 18:03

Not my original thought but a good analysis:

TRAs have created a priest class. Now, as a (lapsed) Catholic I have met a lot of priests. Not one behaved in a predatory manner. All were decent enough to interact with individually. But because a small number are dangerous predators who used the priesthood as an opportunity to prey on the vulnerable, they are rightly subject these days to safeguarding measures and protocols. So that we never say "he must be ok because he's a priest". Or a situation where a priest is automatically believed because he is a priest. And anyone who criticises him is evil.
TRAs have created a class of people that we are not allowed to criticise and we must automatically trust on THEIR say so. It astonishes me still that people can't see how that creates an opportunity for bad guys to exploit. A priest class.

RootyT00t · 12/03/2021 17:55

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think we can discuss this phenomenon on a general level, it's not about one person and what they personally think.
Yes, I know. But , and this is where you got me wrong, I'm genuinely just not as educated or researched as you are.

So my I think is not a self indulgent tactic, it's just how I speak. I read every link you post.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/03/2021 17:48

I think we can discuss this phenomenon on a general level, it's not about one person and what they personally think.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/03/2021 17:46

Searing tweet by Kathleen Stock which is directed at women like the ones described in the OP:

twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1369775992542277632?s=20

RootyT00t · 12/03/2021 17:43

@DialSquare

I read Okbussitout's comment as asking CheeryTreeBlossom if they want to understand the TWAW mindset or just moan about it. Apologies if I've got that wrong. Personally, I will never understand it. Same as I will never understand that the earth is flat and the sun is cold.
Ah sorry I thought she meant because of derailed.

I can accept that, Dial. I just think differently, and that really is OK.

It's an emotive issue, and at this point we are back at civil discussion, and then regular posters decide I'm on the wind up or self indulged or whatever else, it happens on every thread.

I can be inconsistent because it's a grey area. But in some ways I hold many of the same views, I just don't agree when it comes to trans. But given I'm not trans, I have no agenda.

RootyT00t · 12/03/2021 17:42

Here's what I struggle with.

Trans is the only issue I can think of where we say ah but they're not that, so they can't feel that. Transwomen don't count on this because they aren't biological women. We need to discard them from our protection of women because who cares. We wouldn't do that about anything else.

Incidentally, il bet my bottom dollar that I'd I was to ask you what we are doing with the transmen, you'd say they are allowed out? Because they are biologically female?

So once again, only males are the ones segregated here.

I appreciate I've derailed with that example bit the point I'm making is that for as long as we shoehorn trans into every single issue ever, we achieve nothing.

RootyT00t · 12/03/2021 17:35

@334bu

Can you really and yet only 24 hors ago you posted this totally* false *assertion? *Transwomen are just as at risk as biological women in these types of cases.*
I posted that in the heat of the moment in that trans women are yet again being dragged into this argument which has nothing to do with them. I was a bit strong, perhaps. But I don't think the fact they are less at risk when we speak pedanticallu means it's OK to imply we just shouldn't care about them, only biological women.

How the murder of a woman in broad daylight has been dragged into trans I just don't understand.

DialSquare · 12/03/2021 17:23

I read Okbussitout's comment as asking CheeryTreeBlossom if they want to understand the TWAW mindset or just moan about it. Apologies if I've got that wrong. Personally, I will never understand it. Same as I will never understand that the earth is flat and the sun is cold.

334bu · 12/03/2021 17:03

Can you really and yet only 24 hors ago you posted this totally* false *assertion?
Transwomen are just as at risk as biological women in these types of cases.

RootyT00t · 12/03/2021 16:37

[quote Okbussitout]@RootyT00t

The one the op describes in her op.[/quote]
I personally don't think the two are comparable.

I can think TWAW but still see the appalling issues in relation to Sarah Everard.

Okbussitout · 12/03/2021 16:32

@RootyT00t

The one the op describes in her op.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/03/2021 15:49

I have noticed for ages that there's particular kind of academic self-identifying as a fierce feminist who is especially vociferous about men/toxic men etc and will happily tweet 'please can you just not' etc about men at conferences - and who are also massively into the TWAW business. It's never made sense, it's just more jarring now.

It's like - men are all awful, until the point at which they say they're women, and then they are irreproachable.

Yes, it's an utterly bizarre level of cognitive dissonance.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/03/2021 15:47

Jo Bartosch wins the internet.

ArabellaScott · 12/03/2021 14:41

Blush sorry nauticant.

RootyT00t · 12/03/2021 14:34

@Okbussitout

Do you actually want to understand that mindset or do you just want to moan?
Which mindset?
Okbussitout · 12/03/2021 14:33

Do you actually want to understand that mindset or do you just want to moan?

RootyT00t · 12/03/2021 14:23

@TheMerrickBoy

I have noticed for ages that there's particular kind of academic self-identifying as a fierce feminist who is especially vociferous about men/toxic men etc and will happily tweet 'please can you just not' etc about men at conferences - and who are also massively into the TWAW business. It's never made sense, it's just more jarring now.

It's like - men are all awful, until the point at which they say they're women, and then they are irreproachable.

I am into TWAW but also don't believe that all men are anything.
RootyT00t · 12/03/2021 14:23

@CuriousaboutSamphire telling me to nail my colours and being unable to accept some of is see things in grey and are not automatically thread detailing self indulgent goading arseholes is not discussing, it's foot stamping.

Arabella I also read bum of the day!

nauticant · 12/03/2021 14:06

Frowns at ArabellaScott for lowering the tone

DialSquare · 12/03/2021 13:59

[quote nauticant]If you want to see the Burn of the Day on twitter, it's here:

twitter.com/jo_bartosch/status/1370103035830140931[/quote]
That is delicious!

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/03/2021 13:46

It's like - men are all awful, until the point at which they say they're women, and then they are irreproachable.

Agreed.

The wilful misunderstanding of intersectionality and sex castes is strong in some.

TheMerrickBoy · 12/03/2021 13:42

I have noticed for ages that there's particular kind of academic self-identifying as a fierce feminist who is especially vociferous about men/toxic men etc and will happily tweet 'please can you just not' etc about men at conferences - and who are also massively into the TWAW business. It's never made sense, it's just more jarring now.

It's like - men are all awful, until the point at which they say they're women, and then they are irreproachable.