Womb Transplants

I hope people don't completely opt out, just because of this.

Likewise.

I hope people don't completely opt out, just because of this.

And I've just seen that Tish's thread covers the same papers and comments on them.

The pregnant male rat study absolutely made me sick when I read about it a while back.

I had nightmares where the rats were replaced by a transwoman with a real woman sewn onto her after seeing those photos.

Any researcher who takes part in this research should be sectioned or imprisioned.
There is no justification for causing even one animal to endure that procedure & no moral or ethical reason for this research to ever be carried out.

I think this is one of the few things I've come across that I would honestly call evil.

I opted out of the organ donor scheme because of research like this.

So I'm not sure how the anti rejection drugs would affect the male uterus transplant recipient in pregnancy

As you indicate, there are lots of other issues to be researched and resolved before transplant into a male to sustain a viable pregnancy is realistic.

It might be interesting to see the ethical approval in Sweden or other centres when they initiate this.

From the UK paper below, I wouldn't be too surprised if people start using this as an argument for starting hormone treatment in children to bypass some of the anatomical and pelvic issues. My substantial apprehension is that one of the plausible uses of this surgery will be to restore fertility and pregnancy tolerance in transmen who started transition early.

(US) Perceptions and Motivations for Uterus Transplant in Transgender Women :

Question What are the perceptions and motivations of transgender women for uterus transplant?

Findings This survey study of 182 transgender women found that to more than 90% of the respondents indicated that uterus transplant may improve quality of life in transgender women, alleviate dysphoric symptoms, and enhance feelings of femininity.

Meaning This report on the desire and willingness of transgender women to undergo uterus transplant may support the need for further animal and cadaveric model research, which is necessary to assess the feasibility of performing this procedure in transgender women.

jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2775302

From UK perspective with some discussion of ethics and relevant issues: Uterine transplantation in transgender women

Sexual dimorphism arises predominantly due to the outcome of gender‐determined autosomal genes, which are regulated by sex‐specific hormones and influenced by hormone receptor sensitivity.35 This dimorphism has been demonstrated in the pelvis, where despite similar growth patterns throughout childhood, it is not until puberty when the growth trajectory increases in females, and not until the late twenties when the pelvis attains the most favourable obstetric dimensions. As such, if M2F transgender women undergo hormone therapy at a young enough age, they may develop similar pelvic morphology to natal females.
…

Despite a number of anatomical, hormonal, fertility, and obstetric considerations that require consideration, there is no overwhelming clinical argument against performing UTx as part of GRS. However, the increased radicality associated with the retrieval operation, including a longer vaginal cuff and more extensive ligamentous dissection, potentially necessitates the use of deceased donors. Alternatively, F2M transgender men may offer an alternative donor pool should they accept the increased risk compared with standard hysterectomy. Prior to undertaking UTx in transgender women, further research should be undertaken including cadaveric retrieval and implantations to assess the feasibility of the anatomical considerations discussed herein. Furthermore, it is recommended that animal studies are revisited to identify potential unknown risks and determine whether genetic males can successfully conceive and maintain pregnancy.

The reproductive aspirations of M2F transgender women deserve equal consideration to those assigned female at birth and, subject to feasibility being shown in the suggested areas of research, it may be legally and ethically impermissible not to consider performing UTx in this population.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6492192/

So all this investment in this when women in this country find it really difficult to get treated for birth injuries. We are expected to live with the after effects and not complain.

No chance.

This is an old thread and my thoughts previously still apply.

The idea all you need to do is stick a womb in is misogyny in its most base form.

Our whole bodies are involved. A male body does not have the, anything. To do all the incredibly complex things a female body does during pregnancy.

The idea that it's just the womb (jar/ vessel) that is involved in growing a baby is male supremacist nonsense that goes back to at least the ancient Greeks.

This is not wholly straightforward as the uterus and pregnancies are tolerated by using minimum feasible dosages of immunosuppressive therapies.

I have had past experience of patients who had been recipients of a kidney transplant and also one woman who had had a heart transplant. I can't remember the details of their drug regimes but they all sailed through pregnancy (I had been particularly anxious about the heart transplant). Truly miraculous and wonderful for the women concerned.

So I'm not sure how the anti rejection drugs would affect the male uterus transplant recipient in pregnancy. However there is also the issue of cross sex hormones and presumably an artificial hormone environment needed to support pregnancy. Might this affect the development of any baby? Perhaps predisposing to DSD?

I also severely doubt the male cardiovascular system would/could adjust to pregnancy in the way the female system does. I would expect blood pressure problems for starters.
Any baby would likely be small for gestational age and require premature delivery.

How can any of these experiments pass ethical approval?

[quote TrainedByCats]Research is very definitely going on.

Warning this paper is not for the squeamish and raises disturbing questions of female role in these experiments www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.09.447686v2.full[/quote]
Who is paying for this though?

(The ray study is the stuff of nightmares, the animal ethics on this has clearly gone out of the window, we can only hope that human ethics boards are prepared snd will stand firm.)

The Twitter thread that attracted a lot of publicity on the theme of reproductive justice for transwomen:

archive version: archive.is/B6VNC

Initial research in Sweden: www.gu.se/en/research/research-on-uterus-transplant

Pennsylvania: www.pennmedicine.org/for-patients-and-visitors/find-a-program-or-service/transplant-institute/uterus-transplant

Lots of talk about this on Twitter, with hordes of women opting out of the Organ Donation Register in protest.

Transplants have been done in Sweden and the US for women with DSDs and they have resulted in successful pregnancies.

This is not wholly straightforward as the uterus and pregnancies are tolerated by using minimum feasible dosages of immunosuppressive therapies. After pregnancies or a pre-determined time period, the transplanted uterus is removed.

The technology is now ready to go mainstream as the surgery time has come down to a fifth of what it was initially.

There are moves to start transplanting uterii into wider groups. It was due to happen before COVID–19 but that halted the programmes. However, in Sweden, it's due to start up again.

Research is very definitely going on.

Warning this paper is not for the squeamish and raises disturbing questions of female role in these experiments www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.09.447686v2.full

Relevant and with interesting links

twitter.com/stilltish/status/1409853149066797056?s=21

The science fiction is in Leeds.

I completely agree with you OhHolyJesus I wouldn't support it either. But I could see some people attempting to justify it on that basis. Hopefully it will remain in the realm of science fiction.

No. Isn't working to cure heartbreaking female infertility and recurring miscarriages sexy enough? If they can make a man pregnant they can do that. But I suspect they can't do either.

So would women and feminists actually embrace the idea if it meant that men could relieve women of being the sole child bearer, meaning less disruption to their careers and less compromise of their health?

Not this feminist. Not this woman.

Apart from the number of failed attempts actually being dead babies/embryos, who were created and died as a result of selfish, big sky, experimental science where -as you say Catherine it is more about scientist making a name for themselves than being based in ethics - I would never support just so men would share the burden of pregnancy and the knock on of maternity leave/career breaks.

I'd rather see that sorted for women, along with a ton of other stuff, than see it being sold as progress by including men.

Women and Mothers are being erased and reduced to body parts. In the context of this conversation, you can see why.

That's interesting! So would women and feminists actually embrace the idea if it meant that men could relieve women of being the sole child bearer, meaning less disruption to their careers and less compromise of their health?

Some years ago, I remember reading about a heterosexual couple where the man wanted a womb implant in order to bear a child. I think the woman struggled with pregnancy, so the man wanted to relieve her of the burden. At the time the medical establishment bluntly told him it wasn't possible and to stop being so silly.

I think we are decades away from a male-bodied person being able to gestate a child. However, were it ever to become commonplace, there are many men who might choose to do this. Gay men. Heterosexual men who wish to share the physical burden of bearing children.

The irony is, mtf transitioners will achieve the ultimate female experience only at the same time as men. Once men and women can bear children, it no longer becomes a uniquely female event.

I really think we are a long way off before this becomes at all possible.
And then it will be a long time again between it becoming theoretically possible, and becoming a pragmatic possibility.
So I'm not too concerned about this happening any time soon. It will remain science fiction for a while yet!

However, what does concern me is that this nonsense is being peddled to vulnerable young people, who could believe the lie that if they transition they will one day be able to carry their own child.
In reality, it will not become a possibility in their lifetime, but by the time they realise this it may be too late.
Thought experiments are one thing, but pretending that science is going to make this possible in the near future is very irresponsible and cruel imo.

To be honest I think there's more chance of getting "man gives birth" to work by sorting out how to do head transplants.

Trans women who want to be pregnant: they’d be better off changing their religion to one that includes reincarnation and hoping for better luck next time.