Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

And yes, it would have been helpful if you could have explained these things earlier.

I don’t think we have established what conversion therapy is or who might perform it in the U.K. or what gender identity is.

One of the human rights is the right to a family, which is why SRS is not required for a gender recognition certificate.
How does that square with creating sterile adults who have no sexual function?

Haven't read all the thread but if you could remind me of your definition of gender identity and conversion therapy as I missed them.

Detransitioning = apostasy

Re what makes someone transphobic: I particularly like the clause, ' refusing to accept gender identity '

Articles of faith, just like those found in many religions, to proselytize people with.

Someone points out the lack of any scientific evidence for a key foundational aspect of my ideology: OK, just postulate that doing that makes one a bad person. Then they will become, as if by magic, a bad person -- so no need to listen to them any more.

As Bertrand Russell once pointed out (in Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy, still a good read), “ The method of 'postulating' what we want has many advantages ; they are the same as the advantages of theft over honest toil .”

Shizuku's notion of conversion therapy seems to involve seeking similar advantages by the same method, yes.

So just "treating gender dysphoria as a psychiatric disorder" is apparently a definition of "conversion therapy" in use and that people are willing to defend.

Unquestioning acceptance is the goal. Hence NoDebate, 'terf' as a slur, any challenge being deemed 'transphobic', and all underpinned wlth threats of rape and violence.

Apart from the fact that I doubt anyone is buying it, if one is writing legislation, one has to have actual definitions, not just sound bites and shouting.

The one that gets me is that believing there is any conflict of rights is transphobic.

So.... start the list off with women’s rights to be safe in prison or to women’s sports.. no conflicts at all. Apparently. Or if so, it cannot be mentioned and addressed.

So just "treating gender dysphoria as a psychiatric disorder" is apparently a definition of "conversion therapy" in use and that people are willing to defend.

It’s a bit like the very very all-encompassing definitions of “transphobia” bandied about.

Such as:

Anything even discussing women’s biology
Anything criticising any transgender person in any way whatever

As we've been discussing this, there's been a Twitter spat around Jesse Singal, showing how "conversion therapy" is being defined by some trans activists.

This is one of the loopier activists, having a rant on Substack about how horrible Substack is for letting other people write on it.

Those are just the assholes. Increasingly, Substack is tolerating and funding extreme trans-eliminationist rhetoric: They host Jesse Singal, a high-profile supporter of anti-trans conversion therapy who is also widely known to fixate on and stalk trans women in and around the media industry.

Response from someone defending the accusation:

Singal often advocates for treating childhood gender dysphoria as a psychiatric disorder in his reporting. Jude’s articulation of that as “anti-trans conversion therapy” is his prerogative and trying to bully him into “correcting” it to fit a construction Singal prefers is scummy

(And as someone else points out - "Sam, man. Everyone who can read this excerpt can see that Singal is reporting the GIC's view. He's not editorializing here or "advocating" — he's reporting what a group of experts thinks. This is really bizarre and crappy. Please don't do this.")

So just "treating gender dysphoria as a psychiatric disorder" is apparently a definition of "conversion therapy" in use and that people are willing to defend.

I assume OP, being a much more reasonable person, disagrees with the position taken here?

Of all the reverse ferrets I’ve seen so far, “well duh! Of course puberty blockers don’t improve mental health!” is surely the most disturbing and offensive of them all.

Why the HELL are they being given then?

I do know how science works. I'm rather more persuaded by those who peer reviewed the studies before publication, than the anonymous people on a notoriously transphobic forum.

If you know how science works, you are no doubt aware of the problems with peer review? It has been long in coming, but the shortcomings as well as the corruption of the process of peer review are finally being discussed publicly.

But even without being aware of these revelations, if you know how science works, you also know that peer review does not seek to ascertain whether the conclusions reached are right or wrong, but only that the authors can show how their conclusions follow from their research, that their data collection meets the field's standards, that the authors have followed their own methodology etc etc. Peer review is meant to assure that a paper is of a sufficiently high standard as a scientific work, no more, no less. It is a kind of quality control, not a mechanism to determine the veracity of the claims made.

That duty falls to those responding after peer review and publication, first in comments, letters to the editor and lengthy responses and rebuttals and then to researchers examining the same issue seeking to replicate or refute the findings. Just in case you missed it, crowd review is increasingly popular in many fields, with those who understand methodology and/or the fields themselves lending their knowledge to analyse papers on public and private forums and messageboards

If you know how science works, you know all of this of course.

So tell me, is there anything in the evidence presented to suggest (even bearing in mind that all studies have limitations) that conversion therapy is harmful to trans people?

The evidence I addressed and which you sought to provide was about the existence of a gender identity universal to all humans. As this evidence does not exist, and you have failed to provide any studies even detailing what exactly conversion therapy in regard to trans people is, I conclude that there is no answer to your question.

What I will freely say is that forced therapies of any kind tend to be harmful to those subjected to them. As you have not deigned to show how this relates to psychological treatments seeking to help those diagnosed with gender dysphoria reconcile mind and body, it remains unclear what you mean when you speak of conversion therapy.

And are there any studies at all suggesting that conversion therapy is either harmless or beneficial to trans people?

There are studies showing that psychological treatment seeking to aid someone diagnosed with gender dysphoria to reconcile mind and body is at worst harmless and at best beneficial, but I am unclear whether that is what you think of when you say conversion therapy in this regard. It would be helpful if you could explain what you mean so that I can answer properly.

I don't mind that gender identity isn't defined, although obviously it's hard not to inadvertently make some mistakes that upset people if we don't really know what it is

I don't see why it necessitates body changes or for that matter name or pronoun changes

And once a child has settled on their new gender identity and been celebrated and had major lifestyle changes made on their behalf by their parents and trusted adults, and being put on a path to medication and surgery - how hard do you think it is for the child to say 'wait, I'm not sure about this'.... even if they realised it wasn't right. Children don't tend to think about the future at all - depending on age it is often a window of a few hours so understanding the implications of changes that will last a lifetime are not within most children's capacity.

It's possible to accept children as they without viewing their identity through the lens of gender or agreeing that their body is somehow wrong.

Shizuku you are remorseless. But I note you have not yet addressed the concern expressed by me and some others that your whole enterprise in this thread is vitiated by the non-existence of the basis for your claims, namely gender identity.

To be clear, since there is no scientific evidence that gender identity is real, all your references to scientific study purporting to show the best way of dealing with it are without merit.

Let me just offer you a reference to an article including this as a conclusion. It is by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT: What is gender identity?

Here is a short quotation,
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence ... '

If Byrne is right, and there is no way of detecting the presence of gender identity (other than asking someone if they suffer from it, obviously), then all your 'evidence' is worthless. It would be simple to show he is wrong about this, though: tell us a (scientific) way of detecting its presence.

Without this, of course we draw the obvious conclusion. Do have a read of Alex Byrne's piece, in any case.

Once again, conversion therapy is any attempt by someone to force a trans person's gender identity to change. It harms them.

How does safeguarding work then Shizuku? In prisons for instance. Is it conversion therapy to keep transwomen out of female prisons? On the basis of their sex?

Who is trying to change anybody's gender identity?

Once again, conversion therapy is any attempt by someone to force a trans person's gender identity to change. It harms them.

and what if the person has got their gender identity wrong?

That is such a big responsibility to put onto a child - a child who by your claim is also of an age that typically believes in Father Christmas and the tooth fairy.

And once a child has settled on their new gender identity and been celebrated and had major lifestyle changes made on their behalf by their parents and trusted adults, and being put on a path to medication and surgery - how hard do you think it is for the child to say 'wait, I'm not sure about this'.... even if they realised it wasn't right. Children don't tend to think about the future at all - depending on age it is often a window of a few hours so understanding the implications of changes that will last a lifetime are not within most children's capacity.

It is a huge responsibility to put on anyone - to make a declaration that leads to a drastic lifestyle change and taking treatment that is permanent and life changing. It is also not like realising you are gay - that doesn't require any body alterations or strong drugs - just deciding who you want to love.

Many detransitioners retransion? You are going to play that card without admiting that many transitioners detransition because the ‘gender identity’ is a fallacy built up with stereotypes? @Shizuku

Glad that you want unbiased, ethical and robust research. Bell and many as her, show it is wrong and unlawful to medicate healthy bodies in the pursue of a lie. You can keep dressing that lie as you like.

I think the ‘notorious transphobic forum’ has done it for me. I’m out of this thread.

Of course, there's no doubt that profound disagreement and pointing out the damage to women is viewed as negative by those concerned.

Honestly, the insult to the intelligence!

Of course it's about stereotypes. What else is there?

Julia Serano actually called 'women being only good for one thing' a cliche. One that was sexually exciting.

A stereotype which couldn't be more damaging but we cant say, no, you're not actually a woman as it would be called 'conversion therapy' by the OP. It's not. It's profound disagreement.

Tedious isn't it - someone says being trans is about stereotypes, so you post a link showing it isn't, then a few posts later someone says being trans is about stereotypes, so you post the link again showing it isn't and few posts later...

If it's not about stereotypes why do all the links you posted describe 'conversion therapy' as taking all the 'women's clothes' away from males who want to be women?

Of course, back then, very few dared come out, but luckily, there is greater acceptance now so we see big rises in the number of out trans kids.

No we don't. Absolute nonsense.

We see a big rise in girls wanting to transition. And a big rise in adult men transitioning.

If all these young girls are accepted, where are all the young boys? And if all these middle aged men are accepted, where are the middle aged women?

Your repeated attempts to conflate middle aged men and teenage girls is patently transparent.

You do realise that the narratives of women married to middle aged transitioners are everywhere, don't you? Including on this very site. Thousands and thousands of posts.

And also the experience and narratives of parents of children who want to transition. On this very site.

The two cohorts couldn't be more different.

Did you address my question about Julia Serano, upthread? I couldn't see that you did.