Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

Hospitalised for a suicide attempt, I should clarify.

Jack Turban’s study shows adults who were on puberty blockers as children were much more likely to have been hospitalised in the prior 12 months compared to those that weren’t on puberty blockers.

This study doesn’t strengthen anything, it makes it clear that good mental health outcomes are not guaranteed.

RE: Conversion therapy - possibly the real conversion therapy is being revealed by @RIP4Nutmeg on Twitter & via Substack - revealing parents of 3 and 4 year old children who are "socially transitioning" their children - one because she prefers to play with boys. Therefore must be a boy ...

I'm open-mouthed and too shocked to be angry (yet).

and a fair amount are living their lives contentedly with no one being aware they're trans (either because it's irrelevant or because they're intentionally not sharing being transgender).

Do you have a source for this “fair amount” @Evarish ? If a “fair amount” are living contentedly as adults, surely that demonstrates there is absolutely no need for a “fair amount” of teenage girls to medically transition as children?

Anyone found any evidence at all yet that conversion therapy is either harmless or beneficial to trans kids?

Well, yes, you stated it yourself.

The unaffirmed children avoid puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery. That's a HUGE benefit to them in later life.

Did you know that puberty blockers damage IQ because the brain does not mature as it should? Higher IQ is a big win for the children who are not affirmed in their trans identity.

The damage done by affirmation came out quite clearly in the Keira Bell case. You could read what the judge said. You could read what the gender identity service said themselves!

Nellodee, i suspect both- there are fewer and they are underrepresented.
Maybe something to do with their childhood female socialisation, or the misogyny of the movement in general being applied to not listening to female voices even with a he/him badge on.
Maybe because having experienced being female, fewer are inclined to toe the party line of policies putting women at risk.

Maybe we could have a census and find out? Oh no, validation is more important than accurate data. If the census shows low numbers of middle aged transmen, activists will just claim they put their sex as male and didn't choose to fill in the gender question.

And also, if ROGD doesn't exist and all those teenage girls are 'really trans', there should be about 3 times as many middle aged transmen as middle aged transwomen.

Surely, if transmen are men, and enjoy the privileges of that gender, they should be much more apparent, if they exist in the same numbers?

And also, if ROGD doesn't exist and all those teenage girls are 'really trans', there should be about 3 times as many middle aged transmen as middle aged transwomen. Following the pattern of the middle aged transwomen, most of these transmen should be married to men and mothers of children. Where are they all?

@Evarish I am still confused about the apparent lack of middle aged transmen. If they actually do exist in large numbers as you claim, why is it that I do not see them represented in politics, in the media, or see them in day to day life in the numbers that I see transwomen? Surely, if transmen are men, and enjoy the privileges of that gender, they should be much more apparent, if they exist in the same numbers?

GIDS don't prescribe hormone blockers, they refer children to other clinics for this treatment.

Thanks, that was what I thought. But I was checking the Keira Bell judgment for some dates, and saw them talking about "prescribing" there, so I wasn't sure. I saw this:

22. Until 2011 PBs were only available at GIDS for those aged 16 or older. In 2011 PBs started to be prescribed for those aged 12-15 and in mid-puberty.

But I should have looked back a section to where it was more specific:

21. ... they will be referred by GIDS ... for consultation and/or physical assessment with endocrinologists with a view to being prescribed PBs.

I guess the 2008 above may just be totally imaginary, like the 2004 was. I was just fishing around trying to figure out if it referred to anything - I know there's a common tactic of using a "real" number or date but changing what it refers to.

But this thread is supposed to be about conversion therapy, so I suggest you start your own thread about prescribing practices at the Tavistock if that's what you want to discuss Evarish.

Parsing Evarish's words very carefully, I'm wondering if it hinges on the word "prescribed". Was there a switch from referring to direct prescription?

GIDS don't prescribe hormone blockers, they refer children to other clinics for this treatment.

Here is a Freedom of Information request asking 'How many children (under the age of 18) have been treated with puberty hormone blockers at the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) in each respective year from 2009 to 2019 inclusive?'

Response: 'The prescription and administration of hormone blockers is carried out, not by the Trust, but by other NHS bodies, such as endocrine clinics and primary care providers, following referral from the Trust. The records of such treatment are held on individual patient files and the Trust does not maintain a central register of such information from which the data you request could be collated'

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/documents/1866/FOI_19-20313_Puberty_Hormone_Blockers.pdf

given Susan Evans quit in 2004, 4 years prior to puberty blockers first getting prescribed at the Tavistock (in 2008)

For those who like I are sticklers about lying accuracy, Susan Evans says she worked at GIDS from 2003-2007, and continued working elsewhere at the Tavistock after 2007.

This BBC article says

In [Dr Taylor's] report, which was published in 2006, he said puberty blockers might be the best course of action for some, but added that in his view young people needed a period of explorative therapy first.

The document also detailed concerns from some staff about the speed at which some young people were being referred for treatment with puberty blockers.

Parsing Evarish's words very carefully, I'm wondering if it hinges on the word "prescribed". Was there a switch from referring to direct prescription? Whatever, concerns were being expressed in 2005, while Susan Evans was there, about puberty blockers being given too easily.

given Susan Evans quit in 2004

She says she was there until 2007.

Between 2003 and 2007, I, Susan Evans, worked for the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) at the Tavistock Clinic

quillette.com/2021/02/04/first-do-no-harm-a-new-model-for-treating-trans-identified-children/

Thanks, OldCrone
... It is clear from this definition [sc Stoller's] that having a 'gender identity' which doesn't match the sexed body makes no sense, since the awareness of what you are can only match what you are .

Yes. This is stronger than the extract I quoted, in which Byrne considers a (putative, yet to be precisified) definition of 'gender identity' which does fill the bill for genderists. I suspect the stronger conclusion that there is no good sense to be made of 'gender identity' in the context of transgender theory would still be true of any such superseding definition or explanation.

However, we do not need this stronger (' nonsense !') conclusion to gainsay those who, like Shizuku here, make claim to scientific credibility. The weaker point that no way of detecting the presence of gender identity, whatever its precise characterisation, has yet been offered is enough to deny scientific status to any theory that depends on it.

I am not sure Shizuku understands this. But, yes, I also recommend reading the whole article.

given Susan Evans quit in 2004, 4 years prior to puberty blockers first getting prescribed at the Tavistock (in 2008)

Mind you, the confusion being that she claims she left because she 'witnessed a 16 year old being approved for hormone blocking drugs after "just a handful" of consultation sessions', when puberty blockers weren't prescribed to children until 2008, following a conference in September that year, ergo she's not even telling the truth about why she left the Tavistock, let alone the activism that followed an event that never took place.

[quote AnneListersHat]OP, saw this and thought of you. They discuss What is the Memorandum of Understanding on Conversion therapy? Might be helpful.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/gender-dysphoria-a-therapeutic-model-for-children-and-adolescence-tickets-143682033831[/quote]
I'm still confused about Susan and Marcus Evans being put in any form of position in therapeutic models for treating gender dysphoria, given Susan Evans quit in 2004, 4 years prior to puberty blockers first getting prescribed at the Tavistock (in 2008), and Marcus, who was on a board of governors, never worked with trans kids, has no medical expertise and quotes scientifically irrelevant online surveys as factual diagnostics.

Also when you're a 30+ year old guy you tend to not bunch up in support groups and what not, lol. Most of the ones I've had the pleasure of meeting were creators of trans-specific material, running self help groups or I just happened to notice a badge at Pride or a trans event and got talking, otherwise no one really strikes up a conversation to ask if they're trans.

The opposite of conversion therapy is not "pumping them full of drugs" though, surely? Puberty blockers are no longer considered to be "a reversible pause" , so surely just watching and waiting is 'affirming', not conversion therapy and doesn't lead to irreversible physical damage (that needs to be said how it is), so let's just do that.

Gender identity refers to a person’s basic sense of being male, female, or of indeterminate sex

This is what Stoller calls 'core gender identity' or awareness of one's sex. This is the awareness which children acquire early in life as they begin to understand that they belong to one of the two categories of male and female, and that this can't change.

This awareness is similar to the awareness that a child acquires that they are human, rather than a dog or a cat or any other animal or object that they might decide they 'are' when very young.

It is clear from this definition that having a 'gender identity' which doesn't match the sexed body makes no sense, since the awareness of what you are can only match what you are. (There is a mention of where this may be the case in a few extreme examples such as some intersex people - read the article for those details).

The APA definition of gender dysphoria is:

Gender dysphoria refers to the “aversion to some or all of those physical characteristics or social roles that connote one’s own biological sex”

This is helpful because it doesn't use the term 'gender identity' in the definition. It is clear though that a person with this condition has a dislike either of their sexed body or of the stereotypes which society has deemed acceptable for someone of their sex. It's not just about an 'essence' or a 'feeling' of womanliness or manliness.

I recommend reading the whole article.

OP, saw this and thought of you. They discuss What is the Memorandum of Understanding on Conversion therapy? Might be helpful.

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/gender-dysphoria-a-therapeutic-model-for-children-and-adolescence-tickets-143682033831

I have. Can’t see anything. What time did you post this explanation?

remind me of your definition of gender identity and conversion therapy as I missed them

Indeed.

I keep thinking about Humpty Dumpty.