Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

740 replies

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 12:15

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Helleofabore · 15/03/2021 11:41

@midgedude

No one has said that conversion therapy is a good idea. Apart from you who supports physical and social conversion.

Everyone else is about minimising or eliminating mental and physical harm now and in the future

Aww. You did try to explain it again. Nice one.

But maybe when a poster assumes a style based on their expectation of who they believe are posting on MN FWR boards, they probably can never see any nuance.

The style of posting they think is showing what’s what and all that (and displays the degree of socialisation behind it), is more illuminating than they think.

I encourage them to keep posting in this fashion. It piques the interest of the readers.

NotBadConsidering · 15/03/2021 11:37

You haven’t clarified what conversion therapy includes, what it entailed for the people in the survey, how many people in the survey who reported it were doing so for gender rather than sexuality, nor what gender identity is to be sure we know what is meant to be being “converted”.

Post those things then we can move on.

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 11:34

@midgedude

No one has said that conversion therapy is a good idea. Apart from you who supports physical and social conversion.

Everyone else is about minimising or eliminating mental and physical harm now and in the future

I'm afraid just making up your own definition of conversion therapy and using it to oppose trans people's rights to transition is not going to cut it.

Conversion therapy is specifically any attempt by someone to force someone's sexual orientation or gender identity to change.

If you want to argue against trans people's right to transition at all, go ahead, but that's a whole different debate.

OP posts:
Shizuku · 15/03/2021 11:30

"I’m just going to ignore you and not clarify anything or answer any questions"

There is only one question to answer here - is there any evidence that conversion therapy for trans people is either harmless or beneficial rather that harmful?

Just post the evidence and we can all move on.

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 15/03/2021 11:28

@NecessaryScene1

This has been one of the best threads we've had on the subject for a while. I'm glad the OP started it, and his lack of further contribution has been illuminating.

I'd still like to see this stuff taken more seriously though, not treated like some sort of ideological warfare with manipulative language. But I think that is increasingly happening, due to conversations like this.

The shallowness of the analysis presented here is alerting more and more fence sitters to what's missing from research, as per the Bell judgment.

The tone has been very similar to when a TRA with the Twitter handle WhatTheTrans started a thread asking for “any evidence of the GC argument” then posted on Twitter that no one could answer their vague question after the thread was deleted, thus “proving” that there is no evidence to back up the GC argument.

“I’m just going to ignore you and not clarify anything or answer any questions, which will prove I’m right! Ha!”

It’s very odd.

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 11:27

@midgedude

No one has said that conversion therapy is a good idea. Apart from you who supports physical and social conversion.

Everyone else is about minimising or eliminating mental and physical harm now and in the future

So you'll want trans women for example to be able to avoid lifelong gender dysphoria derived from the effects of going through a testosterone puberty.
OP posts:
Shizuku · 15/03/2021 11:26

"a) provide a definition of conversion therapy that doesn't seek to demonise supportive psychological therapies,"

Have said multiple times that supportive psychological therapies are not conversion therapy and that it's vital they are available. You've made up your own little story about me there.

Conversion therapy is a very simple concept, but let me give it to you again - it's any attempt to force a trans person's gender identity to change - it's not "talking about problems", it's not psychotherapeutic support, it's not dealing with childhood trauma etc etc - it is specifically any attempt to force a trans person's gender identity to change.

"b) understand the type of scientific evidence that is needed to determine an optimal therapeutic approach,"

The OP doesn't ask what the optimum therapeutic approach is, it merely states that the evidence is that conversion therapy is harmful to trans people. 26 pages later, that is still the claim and no evidence to the contrary has been offered.

Do you have any?

OP posts:
midgedude · 15/03/2021 11:21

No one has said that conversion therapy is a good idea. Apart from you who supports physical and social conversion.

Everyone else is about minimising or eliminating mental and physical harm now and in the future

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 11:19

@NecessaryScene1

This has been one of the best threads we've had on the subject for a while. I'm glad the OP started it, and his lack of further contribution has been illuminating.

I'd still like to see this stuff taken more seriously though, not treated like some sort of ideological warfare with manipulative language. But I think that is increasingly happening, due to conversations like this.

The shallowness of the analysis presented here is alerting more and more fence sitters to what's missing from research, as per the Bell judgment.

You talk about what's missing from the research, and you know what that is? Any evidence at all that conversion therapy is harmless to trans people.

Must be some study somewhere which looked at conversion therapy in trans people and found a neutral or beneficial effect rather than a negative effect, right?

Go on - just post it right here.

OP posts:
Awiltu · 15/03/2021 11:18

@Shizuku

Just popping back in to see if anyone has found any evidence at all that conversion therapy is not harmful to trans people.

Anyone?

You've had 26 pages of answers to that question. Until you

a) provide a definition of conversion therapy that doesn't seek to demonise supportive psychological therapies,
and
b) understand the type of scientific evidence that is needed to determine an optimal therapeutic approach,

you're likely to continue to find the answers unsatisfactory.

NecessaryScene1 · 15/03/2021 11:15

This has been one of the best threads we've had on the subject for a while. I'm glad the OP started it, and his lack of further contribution has been illuminating.

I'd still like to see this stuff taken more seriously though, not treated like some sort of ideological warfare with manipulative language. But I think that is increasingly happening, due to conversations like this.

The shallowness of the analysis presented here is alerting more and more fence sitters to what's missing from research, as per the Bell judgment.

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 11:12

Not a single piece of evidence that conversion therapy is harmless to trans people has been presented. All the evidence suggests it is harmful.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 15/03/2021 11:04

I really think you haven’t been reading with an open mind. I think it is clear to those reading. But feel free to continue to not read nuance.

Erkrie · 15/03/2021 10:58

Just popping back in to see if anyone has found any evidence at all that conversion therapy is not harmful to trans people

Just re read the thread if you've forgotten. It's all there for you already.

Shizuku · 15/03/2021 10:56

Just popping back in to see if anyone has found any evidence at all that conversion therapy is not harmful to trans people.

Anyone?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 15/03/2021 09:34

I am never surprised though to see just who are those advocating for it though. It is usually predictable.

Helleofabore · 15/03/2021 09:33

Bonkers to advocate for a one size fits all. And negligent to ignore the differences in medicalisation between the sexes.

And negligent to ignore the known effects of puberty blockers on any young person but particularly females.

Diverze · 15/03/2021 09:15

As someone who has worked in autism education for many years, one of the most important things I have learned is that "if you know one person with autism, you know one person with autism". It is frankly insulting to hear the word "autism" and assume that person will need a visual timetable and social stories and that will make all their problems in education go away. Each autistic young person needs their situation assessing and a bespoke approach taken to meeting their needs. This doesn't mean that no autistic child benefits from social stories and a visual timetable, but they sure as heck all don't, because they are individuals.
Humans like to categorise and simplify but life isn't like that. "One size" rarely "fits all".

I don't see that young people experiencing gender identity issues are any different. How is it good practice to assume an identical aetiology and identical "treatment" with no assessment of the individual's story, history, distress, needs etc? To me it makes absolute sense that a bespoke assessment and package must be made for each young person. Of course for some this may be medical transition, and for others it may not be. I cannot see why anyone would think it logical to argue that all trans people are a homogenous group with identical treatment needs when anyone with eyes and a brain can see we have several different cohorts here. Can anyone explain?

ANewCreation · 15/03/2021 01:24

Awiltu
"The Turban study the OP cites doesn't show this; puberty blockers are the only treatment investigated. So by definition this study doesn't present evidence that can justify use of puberty blockers."

Yes. And always handy to remind ourselves that according to Open Payments Search Tool

openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/physician/3058224

used to track payments made by drug and medical device companies to physicians and teaching hospitals, Jack Turban has received at least $15,000 (US) from Arbor Pharmaceuticals, manufacturers of Triptodur™, (triptorelin) which, through extended release injectable suspension, has been shown to arrest or reverse the clinical signs of puberty, in cases of precocious puberty – the exact purpose Arbor advocates Triptodur for.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/03/2021 00:39

Great post June! Welcome!

Awiltu · 15/03/2021 00:06

Debating the wisdom of continuing to engage with an OP who persistently misrepresents scientific evidence, but here goes.

The question of whether or not treatment with puberty blockers improves mental health is a red herring. Puberty blockers cause significant long-term detrimental cognitive and physical effects. Psychotherapy, on the other hand, does not cause these detrimental effects. Therefore, puberty blockers can only be justified as a treatment if their effects on mental health are so much better than the effect of psychotherapy that the benefits of their use outweigh the harm caused by their adverse cognitive and physical effects. You can only demonstrate this by comparing the effects of puberty blockers with the effects of psychological therapy on mental health outcomes.

The Turban study the OP cites doesn't show this; puberty blockers are the only treatment investigated. So by definition this study doesn't present evidence that can justify use of puberty blockers.

Interestingly, this study could have presented that evidence from the data they had available, had they wished to. The study analysed data from survey responses of trans adults. Data on use of puberty blockers were obtained from a question asking what types of trans health care survey respondents had received in the past. One of the response options was "Puberty blocking hormones", and the authors used responses to this option to divide participants into two groups (those who had received puberty blockers and those who hadn't) for further detailed analysis. One of the other response options was "Counselling/therapy". The authors could have repeated exactly the same statistical analysis for associations between psychological therapy and mental health - they had the data available - and then compared the effects of puberty blockers and psychological therapy. paper. But it seems that either they didn't run that analysis, or they ran it but then chose not to include it in the paper.

OldCrone · 14/03/2021 23:52

Did you post the wrong link @Shizuku? I couldn't see anything in that paper about the effects of blocking puberty on the developing brain and whether or not children who were given this treatment suffered a drop in IQ, which is what was mentioned in the post you replied to.

FamilyOfAliens · 14/03/2021 23:48

Most places I hang out are very, "Kill the four letter T word!" and questioning is not allowed.

Why would anyone hang out in places like that?

JuneDays · 14/03/2021 23:43

@Shizuku

Apologies for jumping in. I am one of those lurkers, but not the kind you specified. I had another question for you, if you would be so kind.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2020.1869126 says, "One particular subcase within core detransitions concerns people with autism spectrum disorders (ASD). Anecdotal reports (e.g., Barnes & Cohen, 2019; Post-Trans, n.d.; Prestidge, n.d.) indicate that the rate of detransitioned individuals who fall within the autistic spectrum is higher than one would expect in the general population. In this regard, emerging evidence suggests a co-occurrence of GD and ASD (de Vries, Noens, Cohen-Kettenis, van Berckelaer-Onnes, & Doreleijers, 2010; Glidden, Bouman, Jones, & Arcelus, 2016; van der Miesen, Hurley, & de Vries, 2016), which may be related to an elevation in intense/obsessional interests around gender-related themes (VanderLaan et al., 2014; Zucker et al., 2017). The high number of individuals with GD who appear to fall in the autistic spectrum may explain why a significant number of core detransitioners also present autistic traits."

I know they say evidence is ancedotal, but could you speculate as to why so many folks with ASD are a large part of the cohort of detransitioners? Also, how do you treat gender dysphoria in a population that is particularly suspetible to transactivists like yourself who promise people who are on the social outs a solution to their problems?

The article also discusses how detransitioners had a desire for but did not know how to ask for non-affirmative treatment. From what I understand of your post, you would wish to make anything but affirmative treatment illegal. How does the specific desire for non affirmative treatment fit into this model? Patients are not allowed to seek care to alleviate their distress? Wouldn't that lead to more detransitioners later with no ability to get treatment and serve to protect interested parties from being culpable by making it impossible for people to seek treatment?

If gender identity is universal, why does a study of detransitioners in Spain find the largest cohort of detransitioners is transgirls/born male transition to girl and detransitioning back to boy? This appears to contradict experiences in the UK? Does the differences in gender suggest that gender identity is based on culturally specific gender roles based on historic sex based cultural demands around reproduction?

The study also found a detransition rate of 1.8% in Valencia compared to 2% in Sweden and 8% in the US. Are there cultural aspects to gender identity and treatment that are causing variance in these numbers? Or is the reason purely clinical in that the US appears to have less mental health care and supports affirmative only care , which causes higher rates of detransitioners? What should UK participants take away from those differences by country?

Also, can't find the study but i recall reading one that said that children of gay and lesbian couples were less likely to have children coming out as trans than children of heterosexual couples. My recall was the conclusion of the study was that this was because children in families of same-sex parents were less likely to be constantly exposed to damaging sex based gender norms and were allowed to be more gender non-conforming. Can you explain why there is a difference in prevalence based on sex based partners of their parents? Doesn't this seem to support an idea that gender identity is based on socialization and not on inate identity?

Apologies to the regulars on thread for jumping in and possibly derailing. Most places I hang out are very, "Kill the four letter T word!" and questioning is not allowed.

QuentinWinters · 14/03/2021 23:09

Another paper found "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population."

The authors are careful to say the increased risks might not be linked to transition.

theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-was-lyle-shelton-right-about-transgender-people-and-a-higher-suicide-risk-after-surgery-55573

shizuku do you have any evidence that reduced suicide ideation leads to reduced suicides? What about long term outcomes for these children? I don't think a single out of context finding is a good scientific argument, personally

Swipe left for the next trending thread