Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

And we're increasingly seeing judges coming to the same conclusions. You can try to work your material like this, but judges are not going to fall for it.

Indeed.

And, of course, the sexism that underpins the whole thing, leads an awful lot of people to think that mumsnetters can't possibly be judges! 😁

Or barristers, MPs, scientists, professors, and journalists.

Or, indeed, trans.

When you think sexism is working for you, and it's actually kicking you in the privates.

I am waiting for your evidence that abusive conversion therapy has ever been done on trans children in the UK.

You can't study what hasn't been done.

I have searched for such evidence to bring back to this thread. None found. None.

Quite the opposite in fact. Lots of people saying they were affirmed when they should have been challenged. Clinicians saying they were pressured to only affirm never challenge even when they suspected child abuse or family homophobia to be the underlying cause.

So, I am still waiting for your evidence that abusive conversion therapy happens in the UK that could have been studied (or suppressed).

I can't find it. Can you?

In the meantime to an external person like myself reading, it has served to very much clarify the concerns of this board in relation to trans children and how most mumsnetters neither "deny the existence" of trans people nor wish them harm, as has so often been claimed.

And we're increasingly seeing judges coming to the same conclusions. You can try to work your material like this, but judges are not going to fall for it.

I'm seeing people in the Mermaids area writing things like "Bell vs Tavistock - what went wrong?" And they genuinely seem surprised that everything's falling apart in court. We're not. We're happy, and relieved, but not really surprised.

If you've followed the thread this far, and have been digging into the linked articles (I haven't), I do suggest reading the Bell vs Tavistock judgment. It goes into the research presented and is very incisive.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Bell-v-Tavistock-Judgment.pdf

But what does socially transition mean? In the absence of any requirement to change a child’s behaviour (why can’t they just be themselves and behave as they want?) the ‘transition’ seems to be limited to an expectation that other people will affirm the child’s gender identity.

This is a really interesting thread.

From my pov the op's determination to act like a barrister in refusing to accept the nuance from posters here but insisting that the core statement of their OP stands uncontested is the very definition of a pyrrhic victory.

In the meantime to an external person like myself reading, it has served to very much clarify the concerns of this board in relation to trans children and how most mumsnetters neither "deny the existence" of trans people nor wish them harm, as has so often been claimed.

I wonder if the OP recognises that and feels they have a better understanding of Mumsnet posters' motivations as a result of this thread.

But as you seem to enjoy science papers, you don't have one showing that conversion therapy is either harmless or beneficial to trans people rather than harmful do you? I've been waiting for one all week.

Still ignoring whether Julie Serano's gender identity is harmful to Serano, tho Shiz?

No one is benefited by a gender identity that claims the concept of trafficked women is arousing.

Apologies, need to correct an omission from my post of 17.30:

The study failed to find significant differences between the socially-transitioned transgender group, a group of their siblings and an age-matched unrelated, non-trans control group for measures of depression.

But as the next paragraph said, the study did find higher levels of anxiety in socially-transitioned trans children.

And personally, it indicates to me that they are just dumping any old thing that someone else has recommended.

Yes, the lack of engagement with the content of the links is striking.

One problem with the concept of social transition is that it is not symmetrical.

A man wearing a dress or makeup raises eyebrows but if a woman has not taken steps to make obvious physical changes, its difficult to perceive that any transition has taken place.

The same is true of names.

I've reproduced the abstract below. You may note that the conclusions do not follow from the results and method stated. Surprising.

I'm very grateful to the Scientists and statisticians on this thread, who are debunking shiz's links. And personally, it indicates to me that they are just dumping any old thing that someone else has recommended.

Also backed up by shiz's repeated daft interjections asking if anyone has yet contradicted something they have said, which had no credibility, definition, or even description.

X-posted with 30PercentRecycled

Agree - the conclusions are a spectacular reach from the evidence presented.

For the lurkers, that last link from Shiz was nothing to do with conversion therapy.

The study was done 5 years ago. It studied no child beyond the age of 14.

I've reproduced the abstract below. You may note that the conclusions do not follow from the results and method stated. Surprising.

Children deserve better than this.

Objective
Social transitions are increasingly common for transgender children. A social transition involves a child presenting to other people as a member of the “opposite” gender in all contexts (e.g., wearing clothes and using pronouns of that gender). Little is known about the well-being of socially transitioned transgender children. This study examined self-reported depression, anxiety, and self-worth in socially transitioned transgender children compared with 2 control groups: age- and gender-matched controls and siblings of transgender children.

Method
As part of a longitudinal study (TransYouth Project), children (9–14 years old) and their parents completed measurements of depression and anxiety (n = 63 transgender children, n = 63 controls, n = 38 siblings). Children (6–14 years old; n = 116 transgender children, n = 122 controls, n = 72 siblings) also reported on their self-worth. Mental health and self-worth were compared across groups.

Results
Transgender children reported depression and self-worth that did not differ from their matched-control or sibling peers ( p = .311), and they reported marginally higher anxiety ( p = .076). Compared with national averages, transgender children showed typical rates of depression ( p = .290) and marginally higher rates of anxiety ( p = .096). Parents similarly reported that their transgender children experienced more anxiety than children in the control groups ( p = .002) and rated their transgender children as having equivalent levels of depression ( p = .728).

Conclusion
These findings are in striking contrast to previous work with gender-nonconforming children who had not socially transitioned, which found very high rates of depression and anxiety. These findings lessen concerns from previous work that parents of socially transitioned children could be systematically underreporting mental health problems.

www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

"Conclusion: These findings are in striking contrast to previous work with gender-nonconforming children who had not socially transitioned, which found very high rates of depression and anxiety. These findings lessen concerns from previous work that parents of socially transitioned children could be systematically underreporting mental health problems."

That is a study of depression, anxiety and self-worth in a cohort of socially-transition children. It's not a longitudinal study and there is no direct comparison with a transgender group who had not socially transitioned. The average age of participants is 10, and the upper limit of the age range is 14. These were mostly pre-pubertal children who were likely to "pass" socially.

The study failed to find significant differences between the socially-transitioned transgender group, a group of their siblings and an age-matched unrelated, non-trans control group.

However the study did find significant differences between the groups on measures of anxiety. Parents reported significantly higher-than-average anxiety levels in their socially-transitioned trans children. Parents did not report significantly higher levels of anxiety in the siblings of socially-transitioned trans children. Anxiety levels were significantly higher in socially-transitioned trans children than in non-trans controls, and marginally higher than in their siblings.

Interestingly, self-worth scores were substantially lower across the board in children aged 12-14 in comparison with younger children (a marginally significant effect). There were no differences between the trans group and either control group. One interpretation of those data would be that early adolescence is, on the whole, a difficult time psychologically for many children.

Thanks to those trying to keep getting the message across, it is now crystal clear to all readers I’m sure.

I suggest we don’t bother trying to point out the obvious anymore. I am not sure how many more ways it can be explained. It must take grim determination is all I can say. It is blatant.

The same Julia Serrano in these quotes?

twitter.com/gnarlycharz/status/1368703619684589569?s=21

If it is, not sure why they are given credibility really.

Just to clarify, I don’t think I would be able to post the quote here without a deletion. Or any of the other quotes mentioned in the tweet above.

But they are all by very prominent people and need to be acknowledged.

Very well said ANewCreation!

FAOD Shizuku it's clear from countless comments on FWR, that we neither approve of the type of approach described as conversion therapy by ANewCreation nor do we deem such practices beneficial or harmless to anyone. We are talking about the middle ground, called talking therapy above, when we talk of psychological treatment for children diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

Can you acknowledge that vital distinction, Shizuku? And since you appeal to authority in most of your comments, can you let us know what you think of the ultimate authority in treating gender dysphoria in children with puberty blockers, the experts who pioneered the Dutch Approach? Their protocol includes an intense, thorough and long-lasting psychological assessment and treatment approach, made up of amongst other things talking therapy, in order to ascertain whether a child's gender dysphoria has underlying causes that need to be addressed before any decision about a medical transition can be made.

If you disagree with ANewCreation's definition of conversion therapy, do you therefore consider the Dutch architects of the Affirmation Approach to engage in conversion therapy?

You can't possibly be suggesting that this gender identity is beneficial to Serano? How on earth could it be?

Changing that gender identity can only, ever, be beneficial and a positive thing for Serano.

Excellent post aNewCreation
Nobody here is advocating for the conversion therapy described above; however that does not mean that we believe that mandatory affirmation is automatically the right answer. As I said above: every young person deserves a bespoke approach which includes discussion and exploration of their thought processes, pathway etc. Because every young person is an individual and the stakes are high: there is a great potential for harm if a blanket approach is adopted for all whether that be blanket "conversion" or blanket "affirmation with medical pathway". Both produce casualties.

Given your history with trans people, yes, I could, but no, I will not link you to personal accounts of people enduring trans conversion therapy.

1. What? You don't know me. I have zero negative history with trans people in my life.

2. Surely there are stories in the public domain?
   I am astonished that harm like this could be done to trans people and none of them made any public complaint. Receipts please.

Imagine a line.

At one end of the line are the words 'conversion therapy' and at the other end of the line is 'affirmation therapy'.

In between is a big space called 'talking therapy'.

'Conversion therapy' here refers specifically to electric shock, aversion therapy, beatings, exorcisms. The message is: "Your thoughts about your body are wrong."

Affirmation therapy at the other end of the line refers specifically to puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, amputation and plastic surgery. The message is: "Your body is wrong for your thoughts."

In between these two poles is a whole lot of potential exploration through personal reflection and talking therapy.

"What does gender identity mean to you? How does gender differ from sex stereotypes for you? How does your ADHD/ASD/OCD/ED/depression/anxiety/abuse/adoption/trauma/bullying/sexuality relate to this identity? For how long have you felt this way? Anything contributed particularly to these ideas becoming dominant now? How does your friendship group feel about your identity? What kind of online support or advice are you getting? Can we explore the difference you think it would make for you if you were to wake up in the opposite body tomorrow? What currently relieves your dysphoria? Here are other non medical strategies that people with dysphoria have tried - which might work for you? What are the practical challenges you think you will face if you transition? And if you don't? Etc, etc, etc"

Curiosity. Keeping outcomes open. Support.

No one is saying that the brutal type of 'conversion therapy' at the end of the line in this model is good.

Lots of us are suggesting that 'affirmation therapy' in this model is also harmful, particularly to children, teenagers and young people, as we have seen evidenced in the Keira Bell case.

Some parents might also draw a harder line on Internet access, particularly if their kids are spending a lot of time online and their real world relationships are suffering. Parents may not feel comfortable with aspects of social transition like name changes and some might resist their daughter binding.

What they and the majority of us, I imagine, would like to see is an enormous investment in the middle ground, the third way of talking through issues, supporting vulnerable young people, helping them to come through puberty with their adult bodies, fertility and sexual pleasure intact.
It’s good to talk. There is no rush.

So many of the detransitioners talk about how little talking therapy they received pre medical/surgical transition and how they wish they had had more challenge from doctors etc. They are telling us that they have been actively harmed by the current affirmation model.

Psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, counsellors need, therefore, to be able to help and question and support, even if it leads to persisting, even if it leads to desisting. They cannot express curiosity and provide helpful challenge if they are told that to even question gender identity is conversion therapy.

What we are resisting is bundling up and lumping the middle way of 'talking therapy' together with 'conversion therapy' and calling it all conversion therapy if it might potentially lead to a change in gender identity.

We don't want a model that says
"Your thoughts are wrong so let's change your thoughts."
Nor do we want
"Your body is wrong so let's change your body."
But rather
"Let's gently explore what is going on as you form your identity, (particularly in the light of the other challenges you face) and help you find ways in the meantime to think more kindly about your body."

Evarish

Are you saying that Mumsnet Feminist boards are saying those things?

Although, yes, the first one would be logical if you mean birth 'sex'. Because, no one is denying sex exists.

But the others? On posts? On this board? I too would like to see these examples.