Page 27 | Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

Shizuku · 2021-03-09T12:15:44+00:00

*Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.* As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year: [[https://www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts]] If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans: [[https://www.samaritans.org/]]

Xpectations · 09/03/2021 17:45

@Shizuku

Do more research. Watch documentaries about actual trans kids - see what they say about how they feel, and how they navigate the world.

It was my questions that you responded to.
I read the article you posted, these questions were unanswered in the article. If there is so much research available that could these questions, you would be able to link it quickly.
It’s not up to us to evidence your claims or claims you agree with. That’s up to you ;-)

Original poster

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 17:45

"In what way do you think people have had their ‘gender identity’ changed? I put it in inverted commas because I don’t actually believe there’s such a thing as gender."

So, regardless of what you think gender means and whether you believe in it, you do know that there are people who were assigned male at birth and yet who feel that they are not male. If you want to describe that phenomenon without using any of the terminology used by the people who experience it or the doctors and scientists who treat them, it's entirely up to you.

But whatever you think that sense of being female is, the attempt to make them feel that they are male after all, is conversion therapy and harmful to the individual. In the case of the kids in the survey, 57% attempted suicide. Banning such practices is therefore a good thing.

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Helleofabore · 09/03/2021 17:44

I also have a trans man friend who is gay, a fashion designer and as camp as can be.

You seem very focused on attributing stereotypes though.

Soontobe60 · 09/03/2021 17:43

The thing is that the information is all out there and readily available. You shouldn't expect strangers to do your leg work for you

That’s yet another trope wheeled out by those who are science deniers. No, there is only accurate scientific information out there that proves you CANNOT CHANGE SEX!

OldCrone · 09/03/2021 17:42

The claim was that being trans is about gender stereotypes. Martial arts and motor racing are stereotypically male pursuits - they shouldn't be, but they are, and the fact that trans women pursue them indicates that there must be more to being trans than upholding gender stereotypes.

Shizuku you have made post after post saying trans isn't about gender stereotypes, but not a single one explaining what it is.

How does a boy 'live as a girl' if it's not about stereotypes?

Soontobe60 · 09/03/2021 17:41

@Shizuku

So would there be any agreement here that trying to convert a trans child to cis is likely to be harmful to that child?

Child is born female. Child tells parents shes now male. Parents say, no, you're female.

Is that considered ‘conversion therapy’ or just basic parenting 101?

Helleofabore · 09/03/2021 17:40

A trans person is typically attracted to the same people before and after transition, so there has been no conversion of their sexual orientation even if a different word is subsequently applied to that orientation.

Gay conversion is about trying to change who you are attracted to, so transition cannot be gay conversion.

And yet clinicians currently are raising flags that homophobic parents are bringing their children into clinics because they find having a diagnosis of gender dysphoria easier to cope with than having a homosexual child.

Original poster

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 17:39

[quote AIMD]@Shizuku
You started a conversation. If there is a lot of info out there it should take you only mere moment to provide 2-3 links to reliable information.[/quote]
I provided a link to the key information for this thread - namely the Trevor Project survey into the effects of conversion attempts on trans kids.

What you will find is that any science that in anyway supports trans identities or affirmation of those identities will be dismissed on here - too foreign, too old, the trans people are lying, it's big pharma, etc etc, but never-the-less I am sure there are many lurkers here who have open minds or are trans supportive, so it's good to put the information out.

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Erkrie · 09/03/2021 17:38

indicates that there must be more to being trans than upholding gender stereotypes.

Yet no one ever says what it is do they. Despite wanting to change laws and destroy women's safeguards, no one will tell us what this much more thing is that requires we throw safeguards out of the window.

Soontobe60 · 09/03/2021 17:36

@Shizuku

Attempting to change a child's gender identity is inherently harmful so trans people should be included in the ban on conversion therapy, unless you have some evidence that trans children are helped by someone trying to change their gender identity.

In what way do you think people have had their ‘gender identity’ changed? I put it in inverted commas because I don’t actually believe there’s such a thing as gender.

Erkrie · 09/03/2021 17:35

Do more research. Watch documentaries about actual trans kids - see what they say about how they feel, and how they navigate the world.

I've spent the last 4 years solidly researching it. But I can't find the answer to my questions.
I thought you might be able to help. So I asked you. I'll ask again:

if being trans isn't about gender stereotypes, what is it about?

What is a woman?

After all, you sound like you know what your talking about. Right?.... Or don't you really know?

Helleofabore · 09/03/2021 17:35

"The Royal Children’s Hospital has received more than 130 patient referrals this year, and more than 700 since 2003. Of these, 96 per cent diagnosed with gender dysphoria continued to identify as transgender into late adolescence. No patient who commenced stage two treatment has sought to transition back to their birth sex."

So about 4%.

This was dated back in 2017. I would suggest that there has been changes to treatment plans since then.

ALSO, having had a tween in Australia at that time, and having many teenaged girls in my acquaintance, I can also assure you that the prevalence for young girls seeking to transition was not as high as it is now. I would suggest that the demographic and the number seeking to transition is quite different to the period referred to in this announcement. It is also likely to be quite different to the UK, as I can attest to because I know teenaged girls of the same age in both countries and Australia is still nothing like the numbers identifying as trans compared to here in the UK.

So, do you have anything that covers the UK and is up to date please.

I ask you whether you understand the significant differences of the affects of medical transitioning on females vs males. Have you looked at the consequences of these drugs on females vs males?

Original poster

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 17:34

@rabbitwoman

It's incredibly harmful to associate wanting to be a martial artist or racing driver with one sex excluding the other, and base your arguments on it.

The claim was that being trans is about gender stereotypes. Martial arts and motor racing are stereotypically male pursuits - they shouldn't be, but they are, and the fact that trans women pursue them indicates that there must be more to being trans than upholding gender stereotypes.

I also have a trans man friend who is gay, a fashion designer and as camp as can be.

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stuckinatrap · 09/03/2021 17:33

And yet I have and I do and I still don't understand what you mean.

So I must be stupid or utterly wilfully ignorant.

Ah well.

AIMD · 09/03/2021 17:32

@Shizuku
You started a conversation. If there is a lot of info out there it should take you only mere moment to provide 2-3 links to reliable information.

Original poster

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 17:31

@stuckinatrap

I am heartily sick of being told to do more research by people who make claims and then stop engaging.

I am heartily sick of people being asked a question and responding with 'go and find out'

I started a thread on Sunday about the science of sex because people keep making assertions about sex being a spectrum backed by science and then promptly tell me to 'educate yourself' when I ask what science they are referring to.

The whole point of asking the question is that I want to understand.

So no. I asked you. I asked you because you're making assertions and now you are refusing to explain what you mean.

Heartily sick of having conversations like this.

The thing is that the information is all out there and readily available. You shouldn't expect strangers to do your leg work for you.

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Original poster

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 17:29

@OldCrone

Watch documentaries about actual trans kids

Actually, I have watched a few documentaries about so-called 'trans kids'. It's all about stereotypes.

Then here's that article again which links to some science showing it isn't:

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

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Original poster

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 17:28

@ArcheryAnnie

And *@Shizuku* - you haven't actually engaged with the point that I and many others have raised here, that if you are talking about conversion therapy, you need to start with the "conversion" (newsflash: it doesn't work) of gay young people to "straight", via the medium of "transition".

Until you start having a conversation, and not just throwing dubious "facts" at us, then I will struggle to believe you have come here to talk in good faith.

A trans person is typically attracted to the same people before and after transition, so there has been no conversion of their sexual orientation even if a different word is subsequently applied to that orientation.

Gay conversion is about trying to change who you are attracted to, so transition cannot be gay conversion.

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stuckinatrap · 09/03/2021 17:27

I am heartily sick of being told to do more research by people who make claims and then stop engaging.

I am heartily sick of people being asked a question and responding with 'go and find out'

I started a thread on Sunday about the science of sex because people keep making assertions about sex being a spectrum backed by science and then promptly tell me to 'educate yourself' when I ask what science they are referring to.

The whole point of asking the question is that I want to understand.

So no. I asked you. I asked you because you're making assertions and now you are refusing to explain what you mean.

Heartily sick of having conversations like this.

OldCrone · 09/03/2021 17:24

Watch documentaries about actual trans kids

Actually, I have watched a few documentaries about so-called 'trans kids'. It's all about stereotypes.

Cismyfatarse · 09/03/2021 17:23

Should those who are uncomfortable with their body be given help to change it? No. I don't think so. I think they should get counselling and support to love who they are, not long for what they cannot become.

And where does it end? Diet pills for anorexics? Stomach stapling for bulimics?

And, if they persist (which rarely happens) from childhood then they should be able to access medical support when older but I don't believe the NHS should be funding it. Sorry. I think women have to fight for things which are being given far too freely.

OldCrone · 09/03/2021 17:23

Do more research. Watch documentaries about actual trans kids - see what they say about how they feel, and how they navigate the world.

Ah, so you don't know the answer either. That makes sense.

Original poster

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 17:22

@stuckinatrap

*For instance, a child with a penis assigned a boy at birth who has come out as and is living as a girl.” What does that mean? How does a boy live as a girl? how does a boy realise they’re a girl? How do 3 yr olds (the youngest age included) understand this? How do they do all this without resorting to gender stereotypes?*

I want an answer to this too.

Do more research. Watch documentaries about actual trans kids - see what they say about how they feel, and how they navigate the world.

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Erkrie · 09/03/2021 17:19

then at the very least you have learnt that your ideas about what it means to be trans are wrong.

But you're still unable to tell me what it is right? Why don't you seize the opportunity to educate us all?

I have this question. Which you haven't answered.

What is a woman?

Original poster

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 17:19

@Helleofabore

Puberty will make lifelong alterations to their body. Some of those changes will cause them lifelong dysphoria.

And prescribing affirmation only treatment can result in people being set onto lifetime and life shortening medicalisation. And for females, many of the effects of that medicalisation is not reversible?

Do you have any research into how many children and teenagers will 'desist' if given time and/or treatment for underlying mental health issues?

And have you seen the recent papers from UK clinicians that point out that some of the statistics you have posted are actually not helped at all by transitioning?

This was tested in court in Australia:

blogs.rch.org.au/news/2017/11/30/kelvin-family-court-announcement/

"The Royal Children’s Hospital has received more than 130 patient referrals this year, and more than 700 since 2003. Of these, 96 per cent diagnosed with gender dysphoria continued to identify as transgender into late adolescence. No patient who commenced stage two treatment has sought to transition back to their birth sex."

So about 4%.

Do you know how many trans people regret not being able to transition when they were younger? It's about 90%

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