Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

Exactly

They do feel they way they feel

Great , get on with it, whatever makes them happy . Dress how they like, call themselves what they like ...,provided it is safe and legal

But a feeling isn't a fact. Gender isn't sex . No one should mix them up or claim the rights of a sex based on their gender,. No one should lie to anyone and say that a sex change is really possible. Children should be supported in an evidence based way what optimises their future mental and physical health and happiness . Which I suspect does not involve puberty blockers or surgery

Watchful waiting IS NOT CONVERSION THERAPY

Yes, I was thinking about that just now.

Those stats really don't tell us anything other than this is a group of vulnerable young people.

Similar stats from here have also shown an increase in attempts or no change post transition/ pbs.

There is also a percentage missing for those who have undergone counselling to help

What’s missing from that survey..... the percentage of trans kids who are on the autistic spectrum or who are recovering from PTSD or abuse or who are struggling with puberty.

It doesn't matter if that is impossible, or based on a narrow or incorrect view, it's how they think and feel

It does matter.

Why is it important to you to deny that they feel the way they do? Have you never had an irrational feeling?

I don't deny they feel that they identify as a woman (even if they can't possibly know how it feels to be one, in much the same way as I don't know what it feels like to be a giraffe).

I'm sure I have had irrational feelings. But I don't expect other people to collude in them or pretend they are rational. And I don't expect them to be enshrined in law.

Totally with you not bad, except some here are denying how other people are feeling . It's most bizarre.

No one is denying how they feel. I believe that regardless of how they feel, children should not be enabled by medical professionals to adulterate they bodies causing lifelong damage while never achieving what cannot be achieve, ie changing sex.

i think a child or anyone contemplating a huge life changing event SHOULD see a psychiatrist or medical health practitioner.
the reality is the desire to change sex might be rooted in other childhood trauma (and "changing" sex to the outside world won't change the trauma). and that change what you wish, your dna will always be what your dna is.

It's a feeling that the group of people they have most in common with are women

It doesn't matter if that is impossible, or based on a narrow or incorrect view, it's how they think and feel

They can feel what they feel . It doesn't change facts. Denying that they feel that way is bizarre . You know people felt sad when princess Diana died . Why? They didn't know her. It made no sense at all to me . Yet they did.

Why is it important to you to deny that they feel the way they do? Have you never had an irrational feeling?

The answer "It means they feel like a woman" is no use unless you can define what 'feeling like a woman' actually means.

You'll never get an answer.

Millions of people are it, think about it, it occupies their mind, their lives, it occupies their social media, and they know everything there is to know about it, but they still cannot give you one single, solitary example. Not one.

Reason? Being a woman isn't a feeling.

Most people on this board are European

Only some of them have European as part of their identity

Some people on this board who are not actually a citizen of any European country will identify as / with Europeans

Identify is not an observable fact. It's how your mind interprets the world and your place in it

By saying someone is male is irrelevant to the question of what identity they relate to/feel part of . They are different things.

So, regardless of what you think gender means and whether you believe in it, you do know that there are people who were assigned male at birth and yet who feel that they are not male.

But they are male, because male is a sex, and you can't change sex.

If you don't believe that 'gender' is determined by characteristics that are sex-based stereotypes, and presumably you also don't believe gender is determined by biology, what exactly do you think gender is? What does having a female 'gender identity' (if you were born a man) actually mean? The answer "It means they feel like a woman" is no use unless you can define what 'feeling like a woman' actually means.

What do you mean by prove it wrong? Do you mean prove that suicidal transgender young people don't seek out conversion therapy? Or prove that transitioning doesn't increase suicidal thoughts?

Nit pickers

Apparent sex isn't their sex, it's what people might assume based on appearance

Yes conversion therapy is harmful

Yes absolutely, We should stop all attempts to convert the apparent sex of a child to match their gender identity

Indeed

And your want treatment that actually is proven to help in the short and long term

If your child is experiencing suicidal ideation then surely you seek treatment for that?

I was talking about identity .

A trans child isn't the same concept as a child with a trans identity

I guess it depends on what we think identity is. I see it as relating to groups of people with whom you feel an affinity. You identify as a goth if you like the clothes music and culture of goths and want other goths to accept you as a goth. Not everyone who is friends with goths and likes the culture will view themselves as goth as some people have less need of external validation and belonging . It would be mean to tell a person who identify as goth that they are not goth because it's ill defined or they look wrong

A trans child is any child that identify as trans. Any child that for whatever reason thinks that they do not identify with/feel part of the group of their sex. They don't feel they belong with group girl s, they mix more easily with group boy so they identify with /see their tribe as boy.

Around puberty it's often coupled with a real hatred of the sexed body, but even a small child may think" where's my penis the " It's a personal identity not a physical object

It doesn't matter why . It is a term used by a person to describe themselves , and a tribe of people with whom they feel an affinity. They feel they suits them and describe them. They exist as a tribe.

My personal belief is that in a society or family with strong sex stereotypes it will be a very common feeling. How can you identify as a girl when you are nothing like what a girl should be ? Bullied because of that? Why should I identify with my bullies ?

It will also be a common feeling for pubescent children.

And I don't think that conflating sex and gender is the right thing to do. But I also think it's very wrong , and self defeating, to pretend that the identity does not exist

Except that the very common practice of telling young butch lesbians that they are "really trans guys" is also very common.

Meanwhile if you scoured through thousands of trans men, I'm sure you might find one or two who were never told they were really butch lesbians, or that they were really masculine women.

Much like bisexual people being told by homophobes that bisexuals aren't the problem, gay people and x type of bisexual people are - and then later when the person comes out as gay, the same homophobe says gay people aren't the problem, bisexual people and x type of gay people are -- it's a statement from people who don't give a shit about either of them.

In what way is trans dysphoria different from body dysmorphia? Or anorexia which are mental health issues. What about transabled or transracial identities, are these also valid?

Why do we seek to ease the mind through counselling and therapy with other dysphoria conditions but with trans dysphoria this is unacceptable?