Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

740 replies

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 12:15

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Original poster
Shizuku · 10/03/2021 18:19

@midgedude

So you think it's a good idea to change a body to match a gender identity, but not to change s gender identity to match the body?

Could you explain why ? Like I can't see the difference myself , I don't believe in changing people full stop

Would you discourage a cis woman with a full beard from having it removed if she said that having such an overt physical masculinity made her uncomfortable and depressed? Would you suggest she had therapy to convert her personality to one that enjoyed being a bearded lady?
OP posts:
Erkrie · 10/03/2021 18:18

It's up to the individual trans person to decide whether they think any surgical interventions will help them

Do you think counselling and emotional support would help them to make that decision?

Original poster
Shizuku · 10/03/2021 18:16

@Erkrie

Trans conversion therapy would be any "therapy" that attempts to change a trans person's gender identity to match the sex they were assigned at birth.

Do you think the body should be surgically altered instead?

Or that both the body and the psychological wellbeing of the individual left alone?

It's up to the individual trans person to decide whether they think any surgical interventions will help them.
OP posts:
midgedude · 10/03/2021 18:15

So you think it's a good idea to change a body to match a gender identity, but not to change s gender identity to match the body?

Could you explain why ? Like I can't see the difference myself , I don't believe in changing people full stop

Original poster
Shizuku · 10/03/2021 18:14

@ArcheryAnnie

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

Except it doesn't, does, it, @Shizuku? Even if - and it's a big "if" - you accepted this survey as even vaguely rigorous (which for the record, I don't), it talks about "LGBTQ" youths.

So, for all you know, the conversion therapy reported in it is homophobic parents pressuring their gay and lesbian kids to transition so they will have "straight" kids. And so, under your own requirements, gender identity clinics should have to shut down to stop this gay conversion therapy.

Is this the correct reading of the "survey"? I don't know. And neither do you, because the survey is junk.

Why do you insist on ignoring gay conversion therapy? What's your agenda in this?

You can accuse the Trevor Project of doing "junk" surveys if you like. I can't take you seriously. What I would take seriously is you presenting me with quality studies showing that conversion therapy is harmless or even beneficial for trans youths.
OP posts:
Helleofabore · 10/03/2021 18:14

Because the study suggests that conversion therapy harms trans youth.

Please be very specific in what you regard as conversion therapy. I have seen no clear definition from you, or from the study you keep telling us is the best evidence.

It is actually really important to know what you consider conversion therapy and what the Trevor Project consider conversion therapy and what respondents consider conversion therapy.

Particularly those with religious backgrounds.

Again, ignoring what we are saying will not change the problems with this Trevor Project study being used the way you wish it to be used.

Erkrie · 10/03/2021 18:14

You would extend the definition to mean that, but fortunately, no one will take you seriously

I think people are simply asking you what it means. But you're not very forthcoming with that.

Erkrie · 10/03/2021 18:12

Trans conversion therapy would be any "therapy" that attempts to change a trans person's gender identity to match the sex they were assigned at birth.

Do you think the body should be surgically altered instead?

Or that both the body and the psychological wellbeing of the individual left alone?

Original poster
Shizuku · 10/03/2021 18:12

@midgedude

Ah shuzuku thanks for your definition of conversion for trans people I would extend your definition to also include attempts to change a body to make it look like that commonly associated with the gender identity
You would extend the definition to mean that, but fortunately, no one will take you seriously.

And if you were to ban conversion therapy based on your definition, you would outlaw transition completely. An act most fair-minded people would see as somewhat fascistic.

OP posts:
ArcheryAnnie · 10/03/2021 18:10

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

Except it doesn't, does, it, @Shizuku? Even if - and it's a big "if" - you accepted this survey as even vaguely rigorous (which for the record, I don't), it talks about "LGBTQ" youths.

So, for all you know, the conversion therapy reported in it is homophobic parents pressuring their gay and lesbian kids to transition so they will have "straight" kids. And so, under your own requirements, gender identity clinics should have to shut down to stop this gay conversion therapy.

Is this the correct reading of the "survey"? I don't know. And neither do you, because the survey is junk.

Why do you insist on ignoring gay conversion therapy? What's your agenda in this?

Helleofabore · 10/03/2021 18:09

@Shizuku

Here's just one example of how affirmation helps:

www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/fulltext

Results: After adjusting for personal characteristics and social support, chosen name use in more contexts was associated with lower depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior. Depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior were lowest when chosen names could be used in all four contexts.

Conclusion: For transgender youth who choose a name different from the one given at birth, use of their chosen name in multiple contexts affirms their gender identity and reduces mental health risks known to be high in this group.

This is a study behind a paywall.

Are you saying that affirming only treatment is social transition only? Nothing more?

Original poster
Shizuku · 10/03/2021 18:08

@Helleofabore

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

I have explained to you my view in multiple posts on this thread. I suggest that you read them. There are other posters who have articulated the issue with this particular study far better than me as well.

You are now trying to reduce my view to a very simplistic statement. To be clear, the post you have quoted states

yes they are easily dismissed for policy setting purposes in the UK. The data is not clearly defined even and causation has not be explored adequately for any accurate correlation.

Please tell me again with respect to all the information I have posted, why you think such an ambiguously defined study from the US (including nearly 40% of respondents indicating they were religious) should be used for UK policy making?

Because the study suggests that conversion therapy harms trans youth.
OP posts:
OldCrone · 10/03/2021 18:07

@midgedude

Ah shuzuku thanks for your definition of conversion for trans people I would extend your definition to also include attempts to change a body to make it look like that commonly associated with the gender identity
That's a good point.

Why is it considered to be 'conversion therapy' to convince a person that there is nothing wrong with their body, but it's not considered to be conversion therapy to affirm that their body is wrong and needs to be changed?

midgedude · 10/03/2021 18:07

In think the people who attempt such conversions have a very clear idea what they expect someone of a Specific sex to be like , which will be essentially conforming to stereotypes

AfternoonToffee · 10/03/2021 18:06

But I will say chosen name helps reduce the risk, fine, that is however not saying "pump 'em full of drugs"

Helleofabore · 10/03/2021 18:05

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

I have explained to you my view in multiple posts on this thread. I suggest that you read them. There are other posters who have articulated the issue with this particular study far better than me as well.

You are now trying to reduce my view to a very simplistic statement. To be clear, the post you have quoted states

yes they are easily dismissed for policy setting purposes in the UK. The data is not clearly defined even and causation has not be explored adequately for any accurate correlation.

Please tell me again with respect to all the information I have posted, why you think such an ambiguously defined study from the US (including nearly 40% of respondents indicating they were religious) should be used for UK policy making?

midgedude · 10/03/2021 18:05

Ah shuzuku thanks for your definition of conversion for trans people
I would extend your definition to also include attempts to change a body to make it look like that commonly associated with the gender identity

AfternoonToffee · 10/03/2021 18:04

I have decided I am not going to post, as I am feeling very angry and sometimes saying nothing is the best way.

OldCrone · 10/03/2021 18:04

Trans conversion therapy would be any "therapy" that attempts to change a trans person's gender identity to match the sex they were assigned at birth.

Cross posted just now with your reply. But this still doesn't explain exactly what happens to them. Also who is doing this to them?

In what way would you expect someone's 'gender identity' to match their sex? What is a gender identity?

Original poster
Shizuku · 10/03/2021 18:04

@OldCrone

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

What does 'conversion therapy in trans youths' consist of? What is being done to them and by whom?

You have been asked this a number of times now, but you have not yet explained exactly what is happening to these 'trans youths' when they undergo what you call 'conversion therapy'.

Scroll up.
OP posts:
Erkrie · 10/03/2021 18:04

What does 'conversion therapy in trans youths' consist of? What is being done to them and by whom?

I would like to know the answer to this as well.

Original poster
Shizuku · 10/03/2021 18:02

Here's just one example of how affirmation helps:

www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/fulltext

Results: After adjusting for personal characteristics and social support, chosen name use in more contexts was associated with lower depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior. Depression, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior were lowest when chosen names could be used in all four contexts.

Conclusion: For transgender youth who choose a name different from the one given at birth, use of their chosen name in multiple contexts affirms their gender identity and reduces mental health risks known to be high in this group.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 10/03/2021 18:02

You would dismiss a study that suggests conversion therapy causes suicides in trans youths when deciding whether to ban conversion therapy in trans youths?

What does 'conversion therapy in trans youths' consist of? What is being done to them and by whom?

You have been asked this a number of times now, but you have not yet explained exactly what is happening to these 'trans youths' when they undergo what you call 'conversion therapy'.

Helleofabore · 10/03/2021 18:00

If it's not the best evidence, then there must be better evidence. Post it.

Again, ALL OR NOTHING.

It doesn't work that way I am afraid.

Faulty and unclear data does not make for sound policymaking. It does lead to opening up avenues of research.

And please also realise that high suicide risk IS well accepted. it is actually not showing anything that is not know. But there are several expert sources that point out that this risk DOES NOT always decrease with transition.

To make policy based on flawed data inferring that even to treat underlying mental health issues is HARMFUL. Not only is this logical, it is supported by a slew of experts with decades of experience each.

Swipe left for the next trending thread