Page 18 | Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

Shizuku · 2021-03-09T12:15:44+00:00

*Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.* As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year: [[https://www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts]] If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans: [[https://www.samaritans.org/]]

OldCrone · 11/03/2021 21:09

Or are you saying that conversion therapy harms American trans people but not British trans people?

Conversion therapy taking place in America harms American trans people but not British trans people (unless they live in America).

Original poster

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 21:07

"A) you can't define what transgender is. So don't have a hope in hell of defining what conversion therapy is."

It's a mystery to you, but not to trans people or the doctors and scientists who work with trans people or millions and millions of cis people. Not your fault, I appreciate, but kind of irrelevant - there are always some people who don't understand something in medicine or biology.

"B) You are using a case study that's nearly 60 years old."

It's an example of what conversion therapy is. That's a constant - it was conversion therapy 60 years ago, it's conversion therapy now.

"C) your statistics have been thoroughly pulled apart and shown not to represent your conclusion."

They haven't, but if you think they have, you can always contact the scientists involved - I'm sure they'll welcome your input.

"D) you are citing irrelevant organisations from a completely different country to back up your argument in this country."

Do you mean that American doctors and scientists are universally wrong about conversion therapy? Or are you saying that conversion therapy harms American trans people but not British trans people?

OP posts:

NotBadConsidering · 11/03/2021 21:06

Many of those American organisations advocate sex conversion therapy too, despite its lack of benefit and evidence of harm. I don’t know why we can’t just leave kids alone.

OldCrone · 11/03/2021 21:04

Well, I'm still waiting for some, any evidence that conversion therapy for trans people is either harmless or beneficial. Shouldn't be that difficult if it's so obviously not a thing that needs to be banned.

I don't think anyone's arguing taht conversion therapy is harmless or beneficial. But we need more detail about what this 'conversion therapy' is which is currently taking place in the UK.

In your earlier post you linked to:

An article about a 73-year-old transwoman who had conversion therapy in the 1960s (horrific but not current).

An article from Mexico which appeared to be mainly about lesbians being subjected to conversion therapy (horrific but not about 'trans' conversion therapy).

An article from India about someone joining the hijra community - what relevance does this have to the UK?

An article from the USA about a religious person being subjected to conversion therapy by their church. From that article:

There were times when members from both of these groups came to my home and bagged up hundreds of dollars worth of women’s clothing and accessories I owned, often ending their visits by praying over me. But taking away my things couldn’t and didn’t change who I am.

I don't really understand this. What do clothes have to do with someone's gender identity if it's not about stereotypes?

And a Pink News article. I couldn't make much sense of that, it wasn't even clear which country or countries the young people in that story were from. But it did have a link to this site to back up this claim: What the three young trans men were subjected to broadly falls in line with what leading “gender critical” therapists recommend: isolate them, cut them off from support, don’t use their preferred name or pronouns, deny their identity, try to make them accept and love being female, and attack the “delusion”.

When I looked at the link it didn't appear to say that at all.

Datun · 11/03/2021 21:02

That would just be a sexual fetish. You see it in cis women too:

Haha! No you don't. No women fetishises the subordinate status of men.

I would leave you to guess why, but I'm not sure your logic would manage to get there.

Datun · 11/03/2021 21:01

So, where are we as we reach page 13?

Well

A) you can't define what transgender is. So don't have a hope in hell of defining what conversion therapy is.

B) You are using a case study that's nearly 60 years old.

C) your statistics have been thoroughly pulled apart and shown not to represent your conclusion.

D) you are citing irrelevant organisations from a completely different country to back up your argument in this country.

Original poster

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 21:00

@Doyoumind

Just a reminder, once again, that the majority of us are in the UK. How many times does America feature in your post?

Do you mean that American doctors and scientists are universally wrong about conversion therapy? Or are you saying that conversion therapy harms American trans people but not British trans people?

OP posts:

Original poster

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 20:59

@Datun

Shizuku

"Are you saying being transgender is a lifestyle choice? Or is it a reaction to gender dysphoria?"

Neither - it's the state of having a gender identity that doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth.

Right. So being trans isn't about gender dysphoria. Or AGP?

Or a lifestyle choice.

But it IS about saying you're trans.

Got it. 👍

And good luck trying to ratify that into legislation.

Also, and of course, this is just a wild guess, it might just account for the fact that it's not actually happening.

Right. So being trans isn't about gender dysphoria.

Most trans people experience gender dysphoria, but not all.

Or AGP?

That would just be a sexual fetish. You see it in cis women too:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19591032/

Or a lifestyle choice.

Obviously not.

But it IS about saying you're trans.

Not everyone who is trans will say so. Once again, being trans is the state of having a gender identity that doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth. And that remains a fact about you whether or not you say it out loud.

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Datun · 11/03/2021 20:55

@Shizuku

So, where are we as we reach page 13?

Well, I'm still waiting for some, any evidence that conversion therapy for trans people is either harmless or beneficial. Shouldn't be that difficult if it's so obviously not a thing that needs to be banned.

You've had actual science posted, showing that it is harmful, but let's see what the experts say. This link will take you to the positions of

American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry

American Academy of Pediatrics

American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy

American College of Physicians

American Counseling Association

American Medical Association

American Psychiatric Association

American Psychoanalytic Association

American Psychological Association

American School Counselor Association

American School Health Association

National Association of Social Workers

Pan American Health Organization (PAHO): Regional Office of the World Health Organization

Just the Facts Coalition (American Academy of Pediatrics, American Association of School Administrators, American Counseling Association, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Counselor Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Secondary School Principals, National Association of Social Workers, national Education Association, School Social Work Association of America)

World Psychiatric Association

www.hrc.org/resources/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy

And all of them are against you. Of course you are free to disagree, but given that you have not evidence at all to the contrary, and pretty much every expert in the world is telling you that conversion therapy harms trans people, it would be reasonable to conclude that any attempt to remove the T for the conversion therapy ban legislation would be transphobic.

Ah, and here's me thinking you were talking about the conversion therapy petition in our Parliament, not some other Parliament, in a completely different country.

Datun · 11/03/2021 20:53

Shizuku

"Are you saying being transgender is a lifestyle choice? Or is it a reaction to gender dysphoria?"

Neither - it's the state of having a gender identity that doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth.

Right. So being trans isn't about gender dysphoria. Or AGP?

Or a lifestyle choice.

But it IS about saying you're trans.

Got it. 👍

And good luck trying to ratify that into legislation.

Also, and of course, this is just a wild guess, it might just account for the fact that it's not actually happening.

Doyoumind · 11/03/2021 20:48

Just a reminder, once again, that the majority of us are in the UK. How many times does America feature in your post?

Original poster

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 20:44

So, where are we as we reach page 13?

Well, I'm still waiting for some, any evidence that conversion therapy for trans people is either harmless or beneficial. Shouldn't be that difficult if it's so obviously not a thing that needs to be banned.

You've had actual science posted, showing that it is harmful, but let's see what the experts say. This link will take you to the positions of

American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry

American Academy of Pediatrics

American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy

American College of Physicians

American Counseling Association

American Medical Association

American Psychiatric Association

American Psychoanalytic Association

American Psychological Association

American School Counselor Association

American School Health Association

National Association of Social Workers

Pan American Health Organization (PAHO): Regional Office of the World Health Organization

Just the Facts Coalition (American Academy of Pediatrics, American Association of School Administrators, American Counseling Association, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Counselor Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Secondary School Principals, National Association of Social Workers, national Education Association, School Social Work Association of America)

World Psychiatric Association

www.hrc.org/resources/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy

And all of them are against you. Of course you are free to disagree, but given that you have not evidence at all to the contrary, and pretty much every expert in the world is telling you that conversion therapy harms trans people, it would be reasonable to conclude that any attempt to remove the T for the conversion therapy ban legislation would be transphobic.

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NotBadConsidering · 11/03/2021 20:43

Yes, and sex conversion therapy for children is a much more recent phenomenon, only really becoming more widespread and mainstream in the last 10 years. A victim presented her experiences in the High Court just a few months ago 😔.

OldCrone · 11/03/2021 20:42

The first example isn't conversion therapy - it's a process by which the young woman realised she didn't have a male gender identity.

@Shizuku So you agree that therapy is essential for any child who claims to have an opposite sex gender identity in order to discover whether they are claiming this identity due to abuse or trauma or for another reason such as internalised homophobia or autism?

Do you realise that many transactivists claim that such therapy is conversion therapy and should be banned?

OldCrone · 11/03/2021 20:35

Certainly. Let's have a look at some real-life examples:

What Carolyn had to go through was obviously horrific, but you omitted an essential part of that story:

Carolyn Mercer – who was assigned male at birth – had aversion therapy at the age of 17, with the aim to ‘cure’ her from feelings of gender dysphoria. Now 73, Carolyn says that this form of punitive treatment has affected her ability to feel positive emotions – despite the decades that have passed.

The story was from last year, and Carolyn (then 73) was recounting what happened 56 years earlier, in the mid-1960s. The world was a very different place then. Do you have any evidence that such practices continue today in the UK?

Original poster

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 20:33

"However, say a child comes to an adult saying they feel they are really a boy, having been born a girl. The adult asks why they believe this (is that question allowed, or is it conversion therapy?"

It's allowed - asking someone about how they feel is not the same thing as trying to change their gender identity.

"The child says that don't want to have their hair long. They want it short like the boys. They want to play football and all of their friends are boys."

Some trans girls are like that too:

www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729

"They feel like a boy."

That's a different matter - now you are getting into gender identity.

"The adult says that girls can do and be all of those things and talks to the peer group about how girls and boys can do and be whatever they want and no bullying or mean comments will be tolerated."

Which is exactly what they should say.

"Child feels happier and accepted as a girl who likes to play with the boys."

So, she's just a cis tomboy, not a trans boy.

"Has this child been converted?"

No.

"We're does exploring the root causes of the wish to change sex become an attempt to dissuade? "

Hold on, you appear to be talking about 2 different children. If they were assigned female at birth but feel like a boy and which to "change sex" then that's a different child to the one who "feels happier and accepted as a girl who likes to play with the boys". I'm getting the impression that you don't know the difference between gender identity and gendered behaviour.

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MeltsAway · 11/03/2021 20:30

I’d still like someone to explain and define “gender identity “ WITHOUT resort to stereotypes or “feelings” which can’t be accounted for materially.

midgedude · 11/03/2021 20:28

So you realise that if you don't like rape you must have a male gender identity?

I ding know if I should report that as it is so hurtful or let it stand to show you up for who you are

NotBadConsidering · 11/03/2021 20:25

Victims of sex conversion therapy often describe how no one helped their mental state and they were given hormones with minimal consultations. This has left them with permanent damage to their bodies. Some even had their breasts removed, only to need to crowdfund to pay for reconstructive surgery to fix it. Many report the need for a hysterectomy due to uterine pain from the hormone treatments that formed part of sex conversion therapy.

Survivors of sex conversion therapy have struggled to have their voices heard, with denial of their existence, shutting down of forums where they can discuss such matters, and proponents of sex conversion therapy active of Twitter campaigning loudly for it to continue.

Original poster

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 20:19

@Datun

Conversion therapy" refers to any form of treatment or psychotherapy which aims to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity.

Shizuku

It's well documented that young women who have suffered from sexual trauma will sometimes identify as male, in order to avoid more trauma in the future.

One such woman came out as a transman. It was patently obvious to her therapist why, since she had been raped by her father for years. She spoke of imagining that if she could remove her vagina, she would remove the abuse.

After therapy, she concluded, as had the therapist, that her reason for transitioning was trauma. And so she stopped. And started talking about it to other young women.

This comes under your definition of 'conversion therapy'.

A woman whose husband is AGP, and wants him to stop, also comes under your definition of 'conversion therapy'.

Pretending it's the same as trying to persuade a homosexual that they are heterosexual, is pushing an agenda that is fairly obvious for everyone to see.

The first example isn't conversion therapy - it's a process by which the young woman realised she didn't have a male gender identity.

The second isn't conversion therapy either - wanting someone to be different than they are is not the same thing as trying to change their gender identity.

Conversion therapy in trans people is any attempt to change their gender identity from what it actually is, to match the sex they were assigned at birth.

OP posts:

NotBadConsidering · 11/03/2021 20:18

I’m going to start my own definition then.

“Sex Conversion Therapy”

The dangerous practice of telling people, particularly children they can be the opposite sex to what they are, and facilitating that with hormonal therapy and/or surgery. Knowing that sex is immutable, attempts to change it result in short, medium, and long term harm both physically and psychologically.

I’m going to campaign to add that onto any Conversion Therapy Bill to be passed. I can’t see how anyone would object, given how horrific it is.

Original poster

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 20:14

"@Shizuku, can you explain clearly what conversion therapy to change someone's 'gender identity' would look like? "

Certainly. Let's have a look at some real-life examples:

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/10/02/conversion-therapy-trans-wildnerness-programmes-gender-identity-critical-brynn-tannehill/

metro.co.uk/2020/07/20/lasting-effects-conversion-therapy-show-why-need-ban-now-12982315/

This ‘therapy’ (Carolyn doesn’t like the word, but stresses that she did enter into it voluntarily) saw her strapped to a wooden chair in a dark room, with electrodes fastened to her arms. She said: ‘I can still smell it. They soaked the electrodes in salt water, in brine, and attached them to my arm. ‘And then from time to time while showing pictures [of women’s clothes or typically feminine things] on the wall, they’d pull the switch and send a pain through my body. ‘The idea was to make me associate the pain with what I wanted to do, and therefore that would stop me wanting to do it. ‘Effectively what it did was not make me hate that aspect of me. It made me hate me because it reinforced that I was wrong; I was evil, and so I deserved to be punished. And that was inflicted as part of NHS treatment.

epgn.com/2018/12/06/conversion-therapy-hurts-trans-women-too-a-trans-survivor-speaks-out/

news.trust.org/item/20200817164912-ao5ri/

www.thenewsminute.com/article/they-tied-me-sedated-me-probe-lgbtqi-conversion-therapy-kerala-tnm-143963

Ann Marie (name changed), a trans woman who was forced into conversion therapy in 2014, calls conversion therapy a ‘cis-hetero fantasy’.

Ann was taken to a rehabilitation centre for addicts in Thiruvananthapuram, for a three-month treatment in 2014. This, after her family believed a rumour that she had joined the hijra community in Bengaluru, and had begun to abuse drugs. The website of the organisation — which hasn’t responded to TNM’s calls and emails — claims that the main source of the budget for the centre is a grant from the Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment, Government of India.

Ann, who was discharged in September 2014, describes the centre as being specifically designed to torture vulnerable individuals. It was surrounded by a wall at least four metres high. “Four male staff tied my hand and legs and forcibly sedated me. I felt dizzy after the injection. I slept most of the days and woke up only for food. I felt exhausted, dizzy and my body was imbalanced. I was in a half-conscious state and injected with lots of medicines,” she says.

During the treatment, she was never once taken for a consultation with a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist. Advised by an elder inmate from Delhi, she decided to act as an obedient inmate to ease her treatment. Upon her insistence, Ann was allowed to meet the clinical psychologist with whom she came out about her gender identity, but she was not heard.

OP posts:

Original poster

Shizuku · 11/03/2021 20:01

"Are you saying being transgender is a lifestyle choice? Or is it a reaction to gender dysphoria?"

Neither - it's the state of having a gender identity that doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth.

"I still don't see why physical interventions and other material changes don't count as conversions"

That's not what conversion therapy means. Scroll up for definitions.

OP posts:

midgedude · 11/03/2021 17:56

So simply put, if we don't know what it is, how could we avoid accidentally trying to change it?

And secondly
I still don't see why physical interventions and other material changes don't count as conversions

Datun · 11/03/2021 16:14

What does it mean to "change someone’s gender identity from transgender or nonbinary to cisgender"?

Well quite.

Shizuku

Are you saying being transgender is a lifestyle choice? Or is it a reaction to gender dysphoria?

In which case, finding the reasons for the persons gender dysphoria, and treating it, could mean they don't need to be transgender any more.

If you don't want to find out reasons why people have gender dysphoria?