Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

2617 eminent scientists including several Nobel Prize winners disagreeing with you here

You mean the Nobel Laureate who is linked with New England Biolabs (probably a tad of a bias there).

And the many anthropologists, marine biologists and other biologists that have no speciality in this field, psychologist, environmental engineers, paleotologists, social sciences, toxicology, behavioural science, history, obstetricians, linguistics ...to be honest, I gave up after the linguistics.

So, not really so many notable evolutionary and developmental biologicals. And a whole heap of people heavily invested in progressing this theory.

This is a theory that has been progressed to destabilise science. I suspect that there are so many more scientists who don't even register that this is something that they have to prove. Because it is proven science.

We've moved the goalposts now to "there are lots of people reading who don't have accounts"

Voting on AIBU is anonymous.

Other people only know how you voted if you write a post stating how you voted.

however, I would argue that gender identity is a definitive sex characteristic, so trans people aren't changing sex - a trans woman was always female.

And I would argue that is an entirely ideological position that the vast majority of the population doesn't share.

They do however read, and not everyone who reads these threads has a Mumsnet account.

Yes, and those without a Mumsnet account who are drawn to these specific threads are possibly more likely to be reading because TRAs linked to them on Twitter. So are also biased.

What the average person really think is reflected in polls. These have consistently shown that people are happy to live and let live up to the point they think it will cause a problem.

What do you think sex is?

Do you know how babies are made?

Well of course they do - look what happens to dissenting voices, so a lot of people are afraid to speak up, and I don't blame them. They do however read, and not everyone who reads these threads has a Mumsnet account.

You have not been onto AIBU then? You have not seen the way posters from other parts of Mumsnet post? Perhaps you should go and look. The people on this board are significantly constrained by guidelines that don't apply to the rest of the board.

A very large proportion of those posters on AIBU do not post on this board so you are quite incorrect in your inference.

I doubt they even read it. But they do read extensively from a wide range of sources.

So, on your sex spectrum. Who has arbitrated who is more female than another person? Is there a panel who does this?

What axis have they used to decide this? And can this be done without involving other people's medical conditions?

This is illuminating. I think I understand your perspective now Shizuku Please tell me if this reflects your opinion:

1. Gender identity exists.

1. Gender identity does not change. It is set before birth and manifests later.

1. Gender identity usually matches biological sex but not always.

1. There is probably a genetic marker for having a gender identity at odds with one's biological sex but it hasn't been identified clearly enough to be a diagnostic tool yet.

1. The best way to diagnose having a gender identity that does not match sex is to ask the person if they feel their gender identity matches their sex or not.

1. A person's assertion about their gender identity cannot be verified by observing their adherence to gender stereotypes or their level of masculinity / femininity.

1. Extreme body modification to make the body appear more like the sex that most closely matches a person's declared gender identity is a reasonable response to feeling one's gender identity does not match one's sex, including for children.

1. The side effects of the body modification are acceptable when weighed against the impact on the patient of not modifying their body.

1. Trying to convince somone they are mistaken about their gender identity should be illegal.

1. Trying to block someone from modifying their body in response to their feelings about their gender identity should be illegal.

10. Treatments with the goal of bringing a person's perceived gender identity into line with their sex should be illegal.

Am I correctly representing your opinion?

Your opinion is unclear to me on:

A) If a person is uncomfortable with their gender identity, should it be illegal for other people to try to convince them that gender identity does not exist?

B) What mistakes were made with detransitioners and if / how can these be avoided in future?

Not everyone who reads these boards agrees with you.

I suggest you start a poll in AIBU.

The last few have all been enlightening and consistently around 95 -98% tend to agree with many of the views expressed on this thread. And those voting were from all over Mumsnet.

I think we, as parents, are pretty confident that there is no sex spectrum and that you need an egg and a sperm to produce another human. The vast majority of us posting here have indeed done this experiment personally and can confidently assure you it is the case. Many people have had to discover this very painfully as well.

No third gamete. No third sex. Just the two.

Not everyone who reads these boards agrees with you.

I haven’t expressed an opinion on this thread so that’s an odd thing to say.

And again, intersex people have asked you to stop making that claim.

And again, you cannot deny the facts around this. The facts remain unchanged.

And another group of people with differences of sex development have also asked people to stop using their conditions to explain a sex spectrum which is provably not true.

And again. Your efforts of distraction and deflection do not change the facts that sex is immutable.

Male cannot change sex to be a female. But, we are happy to keep repeating it so, please do keep on posting links. Because every time you do, and it gets refuted, more readers understand just how these assertions are not built on solid scientific foundations.

They've also asked people like you to stop saying that sex is a simple binary, which leaves you in something of a dilemma, doesn't it.

And yet, medicine and developmental and evolutionary biologists all agree that sex classification for people with differences of sex development are either male or female.

This does NOT change the facts.

The list of these differences for the majority fall into either male conditions or female conditions.

You really cannot cherry pick what facts are true and what are not.

Again, spreading of misinformation around sex is harmful. Why do you continue to do so?

I mean, you're welcome to you view of course, but you'll understand if I go with the Endocrine Society - a professional, international medical organization in the field of endocrinology and metabolism, which publishes four leading journals and has more than 17,000 members from over 120 countries, rather than the opinion of an anonymous random on Mumsnet.

So, can you explain what compelled you to start a thread in Mumsnet if the opinions expressed on here don’t matter to you?

Male and female are binary and there is no such thing as a sex spectrum.

Bodies are either build around the production of small or large gametes, whether they do this successful or production is inhibited for a medical reason (including contraceptive drugs). There is no third gamete. There is no third sex.

Sex is binary. The human race cannot reproduce any other way hence, it is binary.

It has NEVER been disputed that there is a large degree of body variation between individual bodies within their sex classification. But it does not mean that sex is anything other than binary.

And sex cannot be changed, ever. Modifiying the body to take on facsimiles of the opposite sex characteristics does not mean a person has changed sex.

Again, it is harmful misinformation to perpetuate the pseudo science that says that sex is a spectrum and therefore humans can change sex.

And currently we are discussing the 0.1%

No, we're discussing trans people, not intersex people. Trans people are, 99.9% of the time, in the 99.9%.

And regardless, if your policies are saying anyone in the 50% can claim to be a woman on demand, then you're talking about the 50%.

How small the number of actual edge cases is doesn't matter if you start disputing the non-edge cases.