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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth

740 replies

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 12:15

Trigger Warning - this post discusses suicidal feelings.

As the banning of conversion therapy is currently being debated, it might be useful for members of this group to see a survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth which found that 57% of transgender and non-binary youth who have undergone conversion therapy report a suicide attempt in the last year:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Conversion-Therapy-Change-Attempts

If anyone reading this is experiencing suicidal thoughts, please know that suicide is preventable, and that support is available. Here is a link to the Samaritans:

www.samaritans.org/

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Datun · 13/03/2021 11:14

@Shizuku

"So how do you account for the 4000% increase in kids showing up at gender clinics?"

That's what happens when people feel safe to be themselves.

What is the motivation behind 76 children in one school saying their are transgender? This is children. Are you seriously claiming they all have gender dysphoria? At the same time?

And 10 girls in exactly the same class in St Paul's school in London, coming out simultaneously?

Are you actually claiming, here in black and white that this is not rapid onset gender dysphoria?

What part doesn't fit the criteria? And why did Penny Mordant say it needed urgent investigation?

NotBadConsidering · 13/03/2021 11:13

That's pretty much what you'd expect. Puberty blockers are a status quo drug - the child doesn't make progress with their transition during puberty blockade, they just have time to think.

So what’s the purpose of puberty blockers then? Are you saying it’s not to improve mental health? Are you saying it’s perfectly ok that these children remain suicidal - something you claimed - because they’ve been held in a status quo? They have all that time to think about how nothing is changing? When are they meant to get better then?! Just sit there in status quo while their bone density stays child-like?

How did the cohort of 44 young people with persistent and severe GD who were not treated with GnRHa fare? I couldn't see the control group mention in the study.

There wasn’t a control group. That’s part of the problem. No one compared what would happen if they were just allowed to progress through puberty.

Shizuku · 13/03/2021 11:11

@NotBadConsidering

But perhaps you will complain that all 55 peer-reviewed studies in that link are invalid?

Not a single one of those studies looks at the recent phenomenon of female children, puberty blockers and testosterone and none of them been published later than 2017.

Do you have anything to tell us that puberty blockers and testosterone for female children leads to good outcomes with low regret?

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958

"METHODS: A total of 55 young transgender adults (22 transwomen and 33 transmen) who had received puberty suppression during adolescence were assessed 3 times: before the start of puberty suppression (mean age, 13.6 years), when cross-sex hormones were introduced (mean age, 16.7 years), and at least 1 year after gender reassignment surgery (mean age, 20.7 years). Psychological functioning (GD, body image, global functioning, depression, anxiety, emotional and behavioral problems) and objective (social and educational/professional functioning) and subjective (quality of life, satisfaction with life and happiness) well-being were investigated."

"RESULTS: After gender reassignment, in young adulthood, the GD was alleviated and psychological functioning had steadily improved. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population. Improvements in psychological functioning were positively correlated with postsurgical subjective well-being."

Believe it or not, there is a reason why thousands of doctors and scientists who specialise in gender dysphoria approve of this protocol.

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30PercentRecycled · 13/03/2021 11:11

@Shizuku

"the denial of ROGD by certain activists is both cruel and enraging."

Well, in fairness, denial by most trans activists and pretty much all the doctors and scientists specialising in the field of gender dysphoria around the world. I'm sorry that the science isn't on your side, but it isn't and that's that.

You can make up any shit you like about what doctors and scientists specialising in the field of gender dysphoria believe. On this forum, on this thread, you have women who work in STEM and other roles where critical analysis of research is a core skill. We have told you why your view of "the science" is at best limited, definitely blinkered and often just plain wrong.

The papers you link don't even state what you claim they state most of the time. Nearly all had the original researchers identifying the limitations themselves!

Coming on here with wrongly interpreted science alongside a set of political statements, getting politely demolished and then insisting you are right must be a mentally exhausting way to live your life.

Why do you think all us highly trained, highly educated women are telling you you have got it wrong? What is our motivation in your mind?

Shizuku · 13/03/2021 11:09

@Tibtom

Shizuku in your explanation of how sex is not purely about reproduction please explain how your conclusions can be generalised to other species including cows, spiders, and apple trees.
I am not your biology professor, but maybe one of the 2617 scientists in this link will be happy to help:

not-binary.org/statement/?fbclid=IwAR29fQ9nHtgrIWGMSsSdefR_OWPeMuZEmei0G3oEC31bAP_FThbngykjjtU

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Helleofabore · 13/03/2021 11:09

Oh. And if you are Australian, you know that the Children’s hospitals are just that. Up to 18.

So, have they tracked further or just like the U.K. clinics and simply stopped tracking when the patient transfers to the adult clinic.

Do you have actual experience with the Australian system?

NotBadConsidering · 13/03/2021 11:08

@Shizuku

"So how do you account for the 4000% increase in kids showing up at gender clinics?"

That's what happens when people feel safe to be themselves.

So can you explain how female children are feeling safe to be themselves to transition, but adult women haven’t accounted for such a rise in adult clinics?

And if it’s safe for them to be themselves, does that mean the UK is not an inherently dangerous place for trans people?

Shizuku · 13/03/2021 11:08

@NotBadConsidering

Doctors working with trans people have found that affirmation is beneficial and the opposite is detrimental.

This is a lie. Doctors at the Tavistock have actually found:

no differences between baseline and later outcomes for overall psychological distress as rated by parents and young people, nor for self-harm.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0243894

They also found:

the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

Medical affirmative therapy for trans people does not improve psychological outcomes, for adults or children and results in physical harm.

"Young people experienced little change in psychological functioning across the study."

That's pretty much what you'd expect. Puberty blockers are a status quo drug - the child doesn't make progress with their transition during puberty blockade, they just have time to think.

How did the cohort of 44 young people with persistent and severe GD who were not treated with GnRHa fare? I couldn't see the control group mention in the study.

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gottakeeponmovin · 13/03/2021 11:05

Is that different from those who haven't been through conversion therapy? I would imagine most people who are different from the norm have mental health issues.

Tibtom · 13/03/2021 11:05

Shizuku in your explanation of how sex is not purely about reproduction please explain how your conclusions can be generalised to other species including cows, spiders, and apple trees.

NotBadConsidering · 13/03/2021 11:04

But perhaps you will complain that all 55 peer-reviewed studies in that link are invalid?

Not a single one of those studies looks at the recent phenomenon of female children, puberty blockers and testosterone and none of them been published later than 2017.

Do you have anything to tell us that puberty blockers and testosterone for female children leads to good outcomes with low regret?

9toenails · 13/03/2021 11:04

Shizuku
The best thing to do is simply dismantle their arguments.

Waiting ...

... ... ... But not, I admit, holding my breath.

Tibtom · 13/03/2021 11:03

You mistake is thinking that sex is purely about reproduction.

It is purely about reproduction.

MiddlesexGirl · 13/03/2021 11:02

@Shizuku

You mistake is thinking that sex is purely about reproduction.

Pray do explain what it is about then ......

Shizuku · 13/03/2021 10:59

"So how do you account for the 4000% increase in kids showing up at gender clinics?"

That's what happens when people feel safe to be themselves.

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NotBadConsidering · 13/03/2021 10:58

Doctors working with trans people have found that affirmation is beneficial and the opposite is detrimental.

This is a lie. Doctors at the Tavistock have actually found:

no differences between baseline and later outcomes for overall psychological distress as rated by parents and young people, nor for self-harm.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0243894

They also found:

the results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.1778correction

Medical affirmative therapy for trans people does not improve psychological outcomes, for adults or children and results in physical harm.

Helleofabore · 13/03/2021 10:57

You mistake is thinking that sex is purely about reproduction.

It is. The classification of the sexes is only about reproduction. Whether a person can successfully reproduce or not is not relevant to the description of the two sexes.

Please name a third gamete?

Shizuku · 13/03/2021 10:57

@NotBadConsidering

And again, this was a blog post posted in 2017, and does not provide any raw data. It doesn’t not take into account the last 4 years of girls started on testosterone. I do have a recollection of looking into this Melbourne 4% claim previously and finding a source, and it only having data up to their late teens, not after. So 4 years ago, RCH Melbourne were claiming 4%, but had no idea what happened to them as they got older, having announced anything since of how they’re going in their early or mid 20s, and since then they’ve treated a big increase of girls with testosterone, who will still need to demonstrate which way they will go in the future.

We have NO idea what will happen to these girls.

I suspect that when they study them in their 20s, people will say it's not long enough, and then again in their 30s and then again in their 40s (and of course many of the people who started with puberty blockers in the 80's are now in their 40s).

You can look at adult trans people and see what the regret rate is - it's between 0.3 and 3.8% so rather close to the findings of the Australian study:

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/

But perhaps you will complain that all 55 peer-reviewed studies in that link are invalid?

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Datun · 13/03/2021 10:53

@Shizuku

"the denial of ROGD by certain activists is both cruel and enraging."

Well, in fairness, denial by most trans activists and pretty much all the doctors and scientists specialising in the field of gender dysphoria around the world. I'm sorry that the science isn't on your side, but it isn't and that's that.

So how do you account for the 4000% increase in kids showing up at gender clinics? Mostly girls

Or the 76 children identifying as trans in one school.

I cant wait to hear your theory.

Helleofabore · 13/03/2021 10:52

No patient who commenced stage two treatment has sought to transition back to their birth sex."

And yet a consistent theme from yesterday’s detransitioner day was that they did not go back. In fact, one said on a video that why would you go back to a clinic you felt harmed you.

And yes, the lack of data accompanying this post is also enlightening.

So, did they track the cases past post adolescence? Or do they simply mean up to adulthood there was no detransition?

And again, it doesn’t really reflect the large increase in numbers that have come through since does it!

Shizuku · 13/03/2021 10:51

"the denial of ROGD by certain activists is both cruel and enraging."

Well, in fairness, denial by most trans activists and pretty much all the doctors and scientists specialising in the field of gender dysphoria around the world. I'm sorry that the science isn't on your side, but it isn't and that's that.

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Datun · 13/03/2021 10:51

"Or is it based on social/behavioral sciences and how we dress? Can we cook apple pie?

How do you honestly see this spectrum working?"

You are slowly beginning to understand the complexity and nuances of human sex differentiation.

There you go. Baking it is. 🙄

Shizuku · 13/03/2021 10:48

@Tibtom

Remind me again what the full range of gametes involved in human reproduction? I get stuck after spermatozoa and ova.
You mistake is thinking that sex is purely about reproduction.
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Shizuku · 13/03/2021 10:47

@kaineus

This entire argument seems to be about the latest trend of people redefining things to mean whatever is convenient to them and then proceeding to push those definitions with all the fervor of a religious zealot despite any pushback. Anything but constant affirmation is "killing trans people." Telling someone maybe they should reconsider medically transitioning (a major life decision) is "conversion therapy." Hell, I've heard some people refer to reading Mumsnet as a form of "self harm."

Apparently if I question anything about my own medical condition or about any trans topics I'm not really trans, I just take testosterone for fun I guess, according to OP. So are you the arbiter of sexuality and gender identity then? Honestly I find all of your comments incredibly insulting as a trans person who is just trying to live his life. If "being trans" is about identifying as the opposite sex, then who the hell are you to say anyone who disagrees with you is just pretending to be trans?

I'm GLAD people questioned me. I'm GLAD I knew upfront what I was getting into instead of constantly being told I was "valid." If someone's identity is so fragile that they can't handle being questioned about it and overblow it as the same as "gay conversion therapy," honestly they probably aren't very mature and should be receiving therapy, not hormones. I'm not sure if you're trans, but hormones changed the way I process emotions a lot, and I would not recommend them to anyone who has difficulties with emotional stability.

I've had several trans friends suffer intense complications from medical transition/surgery that will follow them for the rest of their lives. Transitioning is a huge life decision not only socially but physically, so why should we not question it? Should everyone act on impulse? I took many years to finally decide to start HRT, and I'm glad I waited to be absolutely sure. It would have been nice to live out my teenage years passing as a guy for sure, but I prefer having that experience and knowing for sure that this is the right choice for me than to rush in.

It's people like you who make others hate the trans community and consider us unreasonable, because you do nothing but talk over people and assume every other trans person thinks exactly like you, while insulting actual trans people who disagree, regardless of their lived experience.

"Anything but constant affirmation is "killing trans people."

Doctors working with trans people have found that affirmation is beneficial and the opposite is detrimental. When you are working with a group of children who are already at risk of self harm and suicide, doing something that makes things worse for them can potentially lead to death.

"Telling someone maybe they should reconsider medically transitioning (a major life decision) is "conversion therapy.""

That's not what conversion therapy means - conversion therapy is an an attempt to actually change a person's gender identity.

"Apparently if I question anything about my own medical condition or about any trans topics I'm not really trans"

Not at all - I would encourage you to question everything, so would all the trans people I know. If your gender identity does not match the sex you were assigned at birth, you are trans, regardless of any questions you ask about it.

"So are you the arbiter of sexuality and gender identity then?"

No idea where you are getting that from.

"If "being trans" is about identifying as the opposite sex, then who the hell are you to say anyone who disagrees with you is just pretending to be trans? "

I haven't. You can disagree with me all you like - please do - speak freely. If your gender identity does not match the sex you were assigned at birth, you are trans, regardless of anything you might disagree with me about.

"I'm GLAD I knew upfront what I was getting into instead of constantly being told I was "valid.""

Those are not mutually exclusive concepts - you can tell someone they are valid whilst also explaining to them exactly what they are getting into. I would encourage both.

"If someone's identity is so fragile that they can't handle being questioned about it and overblow it as the same as "gay conversion therapy," honestly they probably aren't very mature and should be receiving therapy, not hormones."

Being asked question about your gender identity isn't conversion therapy. Conversion therapy is any attempt by someone to force your gender identity to change.

"Transitioning is a huge life decision not only socially but physically, so why should we not question it?"

You should question it.

"Should everyone act on impulse?"

No one should.

"I took many years to finally decide to start HRT, and I'm glad I waited to be absolutely sure. It would have been nice to live out my teenage years passing as a guy for sure, but I prefer having that experience and knowing for sure that this is the right choice for me than to rush in."

You took the approach that worked for you and it has turned out well. Congratulations - I am genuinely happy for you.

"you do nothing but talk over people and assume every other trans person thinks exactly like you"

That's a story you are telling yourself. I know many trans people - they are all different and have all kinds of different opinions and approaches. And you can't talk over people in a text-based forum - what would that even look like? All you can do is post before or after other posts.

"insulting actual trans people who disagree, regardless of their lived experience."

Again, this is a story you are telling yourself about me - it's not derived from anything I have actually said. I have not time for transphobes, even if they are trans themselves, but I would rarely descend to direct insults - it's not really helpful. The best thing to do is simply dismantle their arguments.

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Tibtom · 13/03/2021 10:45

Remind me again what the full range of gametes involved in human reproduction? I get stuck after spermatozoa and ova.

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