Page 33 | Tuesday 9th March - could be a big day

Xanthangum · 2021-03-08T18:01:56+00:00

1. Helen Staniland and Glinner giving evidence to the Commons 2. Fair Play For Women VS UK Statistics Authority at Royal Courts of Justice at 10am 3. The Court of Appeal and Harry/ We Are Fair Cop - The Court of Appeal will examine the validity of the College of Police Hate Crimes Guidance I wanted to start a thread where any major decisions or outcomes and links to anyone live tweeting or online footage. See you back here tomorrow!

FindTheTruth · 09/03/2021 11:23

Defendant did not ask itself "what does the legalisation means in relation to male and female". It is a strong case that sex is not self-identified. /18

FindTheTruth · 09/03/2021 11:23

JC says meaning of male and female has not changed - it can only be sex at birth or what it becomes under GRA2004. It CANNOT be a matter of self-identity /17

FindTheTruth · 09/03/2021 11:23

JC refers to definition of sex in normal language and law. Common law position (Bellinger) is that sex is a matter of biological sex. Judges questioning if/how GRA2004 has changed that interpretation. /16

FindTheTruth · 09/03/2021 11:22

(JustTurtles - It's true that it hurts trans people not to collect accurate data for providing services for them and making good policy for them. Accurate data is good for trans people but bad for the likes of Mermaids / MimmyMum - with accurate data, over the coming decades, life expectancy, deaths, health outcomes for the trans population could show the impact of things like puberty blockers long term ...)

SirSamuelVimes · 09/03/2021 11:18

Because everything is secondary to validation.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 09/03/2021 11:17

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Mimmymum: FPFW have just started live-tweeting their *@ONS* legal case.

I’d encourage all trans people to complete their #census2021 TODAY while your passport is currently considered a ‘legal document’ re the sex marker.

Just in case the Judge sides with FPFW 🙄

I don't get this at all. Accurate numbers for both sex and gender identity are needed in order to allocate resources and make decisions on all sorts of things. It does trans people absolutely no favours at all if the government has no idea how many of them there when working out what resources to allocate for things like gender clinics. They're shooting themselves in the foot.

heathspeedwell · 09/03/2021 11:17

Looking good!

NecessaryScene1 · 09/03/2021 11:15

Judge is sounding pretty clued up. Although may respond similarly to the other side I guess.

I get the impression that in a judicial review, it's not so directly combative, and the judge is less passive. More of a participant than just a referee. The judge is trying to draw out the arguments, so is trying to get the best case from each.

Both probing weak points and pulling out points the judge thinks important.

SirSamuelVimes · 09/03/2021 11:14

Ooh I do like it when judges are "surprised". Fingers crossed.

FindTheTruth · 09/03/2021 11:13

(True Garden - those complaints are completely groundless - it's a criminal offence to look up individuals and certainly to share it - It's not possible legally. and UK Gov is v. anti big brother database like other EU countries)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 11:13

I still find the TRA argument really odd - do they genuinely.not want to know how many transmen and transwomen there are?

NecessaryScene1 · 09/03/2021 11:11

the claim is that they can reverse engineer sex from the two questions

The gender identity question is voluntary. They're relying on answer to a voluntary question to patch up the misguided compulsory sex question?

teawamutu · 09/03/2021 11:10

Judge is sounding pretty clued up. Although may respond similarly to the other side I guess.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 11:10

Mimmymum:
FPFW have just started live-tweeting their @ONS legal case.

I’d encourage all trans people to complete their #census2021 TODAY while your passport is currently considered a ‘legal document’ re the sex marker.

Just in case the Judge sides with FPFW 🙄

FindTheTruth · 09/03/2021 11:10

The Guidance allows a choice of correct answers - sex on birth certificate can be different to sex on passport. This must be wrong because there can only be one right answer. /15

gardenbird48 · 09/03/2021 11:09

@FindTheTruth

Yes sorry Necessary - they can in 100 years but ONS do take individual privacy extremely seriously, so this whole mess is not about 'misgendering' or any other nonsense. the data can only be used in aggregate IF, and only IF it does not risk revealing individual identities.

So I really don’t understand the argument for not requiring people to put their birth sex. I saw various activists complaining that it puts them in danger to let the government have a list of trans people and their addresses

. I’m not aware of an actual reason being given for doing this other than it has been demanded by Stonewall etc.

It would be great for someone with some legal knowledge to give us a translation of judgespeak - ie

‘surprised’ = jfc what were you thinking??

FindTheTruth · 09/03/2021 11:09

Judge says "ONS doesn't get to choose what sex is". ONS must simply do as its required to by the Census Order. JC says: The question must be "what IS your sex" /14

drwitch · 09/03/2021 11:09

And you can't reverse engineer unless you know roughly how different sorts of people will answer the two questions. (Ironically if the census would be a good source of this info)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 11:08

Judge says "ONS doesn't get to choose what sex is". ONS must simply do as its required to by the Census Order. JC says: The question must be "what IS your sex" /14

FindTheTruth · 09/03/2021 11:08

correct GAHgamel

GAHgamel · 09/03/2021 11:07

@FindTheTruth

Yes sorry Necessary - they can in 100 years but ONS do take individual privacy extremely seriously, so this whole mess is not about 'misgendering' or any other nonsense. the data can only be used in aggregate IF, and only IF it does not risk revealing individual identities.

And if I recall correctly, you have the option to do an individual online return for yourself that supersedes your household return, so you do not need to out yourself as gay or trans if you aren't out to the people that you live with.

drwitch · 09/03/2021 11:07

And this is another problem with their approach, the claim is that they can reverse engineer sex from the two questions but the published tables may not do this because of small cell sizes

MishyJDI · 09/03/2021 11:05

Is Linehan turning up as himself or his alter ego? His photo!

FindTheTruth · 09/03/2021 11:03

Yes sorry Necessary - they can in 100 years but ONS do take individual privacy extremely seriously, so this whole mess is not about 'misgendering' or any other nonsense. the data can only be used in aggregate IF, and only IF it does not risk revealing individual identities.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 09/03/2021 11:03

I see it's under Justice Swift. I believe that's the same judge who has the prison judicial review?