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Original poster

Tuesday 9th March - could be a big day

913 replies

Xanthangum · 08/03/2021 18:01

  1. Helen Staniland and Glinner giving evidence to the Commons
  1. Fair Play For Women VS UK Statistics Authority at Royal Courts of Justice at 10am
  1. The Court of Appeal and Harry/ We Are Fair Cop - The Court of Appeal will examine the validity of the College of Police Hate Crimes Guidance

I wanted to start a thread where any major decisions or outcomes and links to anyone live tweeting or online footage. See you back here tomorrow!

OP posts:
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8
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:47

Defendants contention that statutory interpretation of sex = sex written on any document is 'hopeless' /53

Datun · 09/03/2021 12:46

v) Nothing to indicate that conflation of sex and gender identity is damaging in statistical terms. /51

Oh, I've heard it all. How do they know??? If you're not counting the number of people who might put false information on the census, how do you know how many people have done it??
🤣

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 09/03/2021 12:46

I am having difficulty understanding = please try again because at the moment your argument is somewhere between unclear and utter bollocks*

🤣

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:45

Jason Coppel replies:

Defendant does not appear to accept that the guidance is a position on self-identity. It plainly does because passport can be changed on demand (just needing a doctors note - not a diagnosis) /52

BettyFilous · 09/03/2021 12:45

Thanks all for the live posting. I have caught up over lunch. I’m pleased it is the same judge who a crash course in the sex/gender jiggery-pokery over prisons. Following with interest.

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 09/03/2021 12:44

[quote ChazsBrilliantAttitude]@HamsterV2
That’s the real crying shame of the whole thing. Trans people need accurate data just as much as women do. How can you advocate for the services you need if the number of trans people is being artificially lowered in the census. It’s going to be a real issue if councils start turning around and saying the census shows fewer trans people than they expected so services can be scaled back or not set up in the first place.[/quote]
Agree that the census is important to make sure people get the appropriate services and that there is sufficient capacity. It's also going to waste time and money if a sizeable group of 20 something trans/NBs record their sex as female - the census is used to decide important services like maternity provision ffs.

FindTheTruth · 09/03/2021 12:44

[undermines] engagement with the trans community.

No. it 'undermines' engagement with Stonewall. Stonewall don't speak for all trans.

Accurate data helps trans people and hurts Stonewall's legacy long term.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:43

@OvaHere

Was the census made live early specifically to undermine this legal challenge?
A cynic would say so....
OvaHere · 09/03/2021 12:43

Was the census made live early specifically to undermine this legal challenge?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:43

iv) Nothing to indicate that conflation of sex and gender identity is damaging in statistical terms. /51

highame · 09/03/2021 12:42

That engagement with Stonewall law

GAHgamel · 09/03/2021 12:42

From what I can remember of "Balance of Convenience" arguments before, I think what he's saying here that it's worse for people to have no guidance in the short term and then the existing guidance to be reinstated, than for people to argue according to the wrong guidance which is then withdrawn. I might be biased but I reckon that's cobblers.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:41

ii) Undermines expert experience and judgement of the ONS, and the nature and care of that engagement with the trans community. Response rates could be impacted /49

iii) The census has gone 'live'.
Judge - how many people have replied?
Numbers so far among 3 million so far. /50

Datun · 09/03/2021 12:40

individual must not put a 'false answer'. so its ok as long as individual doesn't think its false when answering

If it's based on your birth certificate or GRC, then you know it's not false. How could you think otherwise?

PearPickingPorky · 09/03/2021 12:39

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

JE now turns to interim relief. On balance of convenience it should not be granted. If guidance altered it will i) 'people will be unguided by the difficult concept of sex' /48
Not a single person genuinely finds the concept of what their sex is difficult. Not one. Especially trans people, since it is the entire basis of their 'being trans'
CardinalLolzy · 09/03/2021 12:39

@Datun

I mean we always say there is no argument.

But you sometimes think a clever barrister could perform some creative, linguistic miracle, don't you.

But no.

Genuinely, this is why these cases are so helpful. Regardless of the outcome - to see the arguments set out clearly and plainly without devolving into adhoms, derails etc.
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:39

the difficult concept of sex Hmm

Xanthangum · 09/03/2021 12:38

This reply has been deleted

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highame · 09/03/2021 12:38

You do realise, we're paying the salaries of these civil servants

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:38

JE now turns to interim relief. On balance of convenience it should not be granted. If guidance altered it will i) 'people will be unguided by the difficult concept of sex' /48

highame · 09/03/2021 12:36

E: There hasn't been a change in position. The form of Guidance was doing to be 'legal/official documents'.

Judge: But Bells email on 28th January suggests 'legal sex according to birth certificates and GRC' /45

Judge "It seems a bit odd" what he writes is "all the more baffling" /46

GAHgamel · 09/03/2021 12:36

Judge "It seems a bit odd" what he writes is "all the more baffling" /46

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:36

[how ONS can claims there's been no change in position when we have evidence in writing and on radio that at end of Jan they were saying legal sex!] /47

Datun · 09/03/2021 12:36

@TeenMinusTests

it would be funny if the outcome of all this turns out to be that people just could no longer change their sex on their passport at more-or-less will.
I'm Always gobsmacked that they can.
ArabellaScott · 09/03/2021 12:36

judge: But Bells email on 28th January suggests 'legal sex according to birth certificates and GRC' /45

How can it be anything else? Would be good to get this cleared up.