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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tuesday 9th March - could be a big day

913 replies

Xanthangum · 08/03/2021 18:01

  1. Helen Staniland and Glinner giving evidence to the Commons
  1. Fair Play For Women VS UK Statistics Authority at Royal Courts of Justice at 10am
  1. The Court of Appeal and Harry/ We Are Fair Cop - The Court of Appeal will examine the validity of the College of Police Hate Crimes Guidance

I wanted to start a thread where any major decisions or outcomes and links to anyone live tweeting or online footage. See you back here tomorrow!

OP posts:
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Melroses · 09/03/2021 13:05

As far as I understand, the numbers with a GRA are officially quantifiable so you can work back, but the numbers changing passport unofficially is to difficult to count ..........or something.

And ManFriday managed to change their driving license by just asking.

Sophoclesthefox · 09/03/2021 13:05

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Bellinger and the GRA2004 defines sex. GRA2004 IS a "sex act" /54
You can see why they didn’t call it the sex act though 🤣 sounds like something that would happen in a tabloid romp.
ArabellaScott · 09/03/2021 13:04

I'm self employed and getting absolutely zero work done today

join the fecking club. Also allegedly homeschooling.

Sophoclesthefox · 09/03/2021 13:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Toomie · 09/03/2021 13:02

Yes! Massive thanks to all for the live updates. It must take a lot of concentration and effort to read it all and post here. I've just realised you have no idea how many of us are following and appreciating it.

I'm self employed and getting absolutely zero work done today Grin

Datun · 09/03/2021 13:02

[quote GAHgamel]@CardinalLolzy
Defendants contention that statutory interpretation of sex = sex written on any document is 'hopeless' /53
The judge said that?? shock
Genuinely mindblowing to see anyone say that out loud!

This was part of FPFW's barrister's response to the ONS' barrister, not the judge, sorry.[/quote]
It is hopeless. Or rather useless. Utterly useless. Except as a personal, split-second, one-to-one validation of the person holding the pen.

NecessaryScene1 · 09/03/2021 13:01

how the hell could the Barrister for the ONS argue otherwise?

Now, now, RedDogsBeg, it's all very well to criticise, but I'm sure he was doing his best.

Would you care to present your better arguments for the ONS?

I imagine many of the barristers who've been having to present some of these cases might be up for some sort of award for valour in the face of hopeless odds. Or at the very least, I bet they get some sympathy drinks...

PearPickingPorky · 09/03/2021 12:59

@NecessaryScene1

We need the judgespeak dictionary entry for "hopeless" (if it's not a bannable offense to post on MN).
That was the claimant's counsel who said that - not the judge.

Just in case people are getting their hopes up!

GAHgamel · 09/03/2021 12:59

@CardinalLolzy
Defendants contention that statutory interpretation of sex = sex written on any document is 'hopeless' /53
The judge said that?? shock
Genuinely mindblowing to see anyone say that out loud!

This was part of FPFW's barrister's response to the ONS' barrister, not the judge, sorry.

RedDogsBeg · 09/03/2021 12:58

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

think closing that particular loophole would be the best outcome

For all documents, not just passport

Agree.

All these court cases show is what an absolute dogs dinner the GRA and parts of the Equality Act are.

Bellinger and the GRA2004 defines sex. GRA2004 IS a "sex act" /54

Yes, exactly, how the hell could the Barrister for the ONS argue otherwise?

Xanthangum · 09/03/2021 12:57

I just snuck a peak at Eadie's closing remarks:

Oh, go on, leave the guidance as it is, your honour, please! It’s a lovely day. Pretty clouds, trees, birds, etc. I rest my case.

OP posts:
NecessaryScene1 · 09/03/2021 12:56

We need the judgespeak dictionary entry for "hopeless" (if it's not a bannable offense to post on MN).

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 09/03/2021 12:55

Thanks for the live updates all!

McDuffy · 09/03/2021 12:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:55

Gah! 2pm . There's going to be a lot of overlap - hopefully this thread will bring all the cases together.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 09/03/2021 12:54

Glinner has posted this on behalf of Lauren Black, if anyone is interested. I feel that it indicates the one-sidedness of many of these "debates".

V V V V V V V

A lesbian response to Panti Bliss

Graham Linehan
Mar 9

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The Irish Independent refused to print Lauren Black’s response to a disingenuous interview with Panti Bliss, so I’m putting it here. If you want to ask why this response was not published, you can write to The Independent at [email protected]

Dear Sir,

I read the write up of your interview with Rory O’Neil in last week’s Sunday Independent with a sense of growing astonishment. In the first paragraphs, self-pity and entitlement were on full display (shopping at Dunnes, oh the indignity!) But it was the false claims regarding “twitter transphobia” that I found most disingenuous.

I grew up proudly working class, in County Armagh during the troubles. I am a butch lesbian, co-founder of the LGB Alliance Ireland. Last week, Rory, from his Panti Bliss account, claimed that I am supposedly an English transphobe. I am a Northern woman, so you can imagine my feelings being forced to go onto Graham Linehan’s podcast to prove my Irish credentials to the followers of someone calling themselves “Panti Bliss.”

Even this did not stop the onslaught of abuse that was being sent my way by Panti's followers. I was accused (in frankly sectarian terms) of not being Irish enough. My accent was ripped to pieces, as having not spent any “significant part” of my childhood here. I was accused of “penis envy” and told that I should “drop the butch lesbian schtick” and “just transition.” I was accused of being a right-wing racist.

Even when Panti conceded that I am Irish, no apology was issued and no call to stop the abuse was made to the 74,000 followers of the account.

Rory was wrong to call me out for not being Irish, he was wrong to double down, he was wrong not to apologise, and he is wrong again, claiming that he was the victim in what happened when he was, in fact, the instigator.

I responded then, as I respond now. All the nonsense about who is properly Irish is just guff, and xenophobic guff to boot. This is the land of 1,000 welcomes, and there are rightly people who were not born here on all sides of the trans debates.

All of this is a massive distraction from the actual issues. There is a real debate to be had here, about LGB rights, about women’s spaces and women’s sports, about the huge explosion in gender-questioning children, about the medical transition of those children, about what counts as conversion therapy, and about the harms of the affirmation model, even for adults.

I reiterate my call to Rory, for a moderated debate on the actual issues. Let’s get this out in the open, instead of calling down Twitter mobs on false pretences, as Rory did, then crying victim in the Sunday papers when it doesn’t go his way.

Sincerely,

Lauren Black.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:54

Judge needs time to think about decision. Proposes to deliver judgement at 2pm.

Court adjourned /56

CardinalLolzy · 09/03/2021 12:54

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Defendants contention that statutory interpretation of sex = sex written on any document is 'hopeless' /53
The judge said that?? Shock Genuinely mindblowing to see anyone say that out loud!
Datun · 09/03/2021 12:53

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

think closing that particular loophole would be the best outcome

For all documents, not just passport

Indeed. It's batshit that you can do it. Either sex is relevant, in which case it should be correct. Or it isn't, in which case leave it out altogether.
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:52

Interim relief: Should be some scepticism on defendants contentions to harmful effect of changing the guidance.

ONS's own evidence has user testing that tested 'no guidance' and this did not cause problems with anyone being able to answer /55

McDuffy · 09/03/2021 12:50

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Defendants contention that statutory interpretation of sex = sex written on any document is 'hopeless' /53
Crikey
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:50

think closing that particular loophole would be the best outcome

For all documents, not just passport

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2021 12:49

it would be funny if the outcome of all this turns out to be that people just could no longer change their sex on their passport at more-or-less will.

I think closing that particular loophole would be the best outcome.

highame · 09/03/2021 12:49

Yes ^

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:47

Bellinger and the GRA2004 defines sex. GRA2004 IS a "sex act" /54

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