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Parliamentary debate on Monday to ban gay conversion therapy

160 replies

rabbitwoman · 06/03/2021 08:12

Morning!

I have been keeping an eye out for a thread about this but can't see one....

Banning conversion therapy was a key manesfesto pledge by this government. Of course, gay conversion therapy is appalling and archaic and I am amazed its still legal in this country so of course I am all for a ban. The government have been slow off the mark, though.

A petition to ban conversion therapy reached 250000 so it is being raised in parliament on Monday. Great! I signed it myself.....

But then closer inspection of the wording of the petition raised alarm bells - it doesn't say gay conversion therapy, but LGBT therapy......

The recent decision to re evaluate the use of puberty blockers for children has caused a lot of anger and debate amongst many trans rights advocates, and I presume that the main thrust of the debate will be around the treatment of gender dysphoric children.

The Keira Bell case very much highlighted the problems with the Stonewall advocated approach of complete and immediate affirmation of transgender children and it would appear that actually, a range of treatments may be appropriate, including therapy and counselling that may question a child's gender distress and explore alternative causes, helping a child to successful outcomes that may not include transitioning.

In many places this has been reframed as 'conversion therapy'. I am very concerned that the thrust of the argument in parliament will be much less about the abhorrent practice of using psychological and physical torture to supress same sexual attraction, and more about outlawing a range of therapies for children presenting with gender dysphoria.

This has happened in Australia and the USA, and it looks like a call to folow suit here, which would raise concerns from a safeguarding viewpoint, as well as directly contradicting the findings of the recent Tavistock review. Making it illeagle to explore what could be alternative causes of gender dysphoria and heading straight to transition is a worrying treatment model.

There is also a lot of compelling evidence from the Tavistock review that gay children had been pushed into transition by homophobic parents - Marcus Evans, Susan Evans and Dr David Bell have all said this in public interviews.

The wording of this petition, though, seems to be a deliberate tactic to lump together perfectly reasonable and watchful therapies with abhorrent and sickening practises. I am concerned that the nuance will be missed by some and the progress that has been made since the review will be lost.

It is possible to believe that gay conversion therapy is wrong on every level, but also to think that hormones and surgery is not an appropriate pathway for many children currently identifying out of womanhood. Providing alternative treatments for gender dysphoric children should not be lumped in with gay conversion therapy.

I have tried to raise this on twitter and the replies I got seemed to be willfully refusing to see the difference.

I will be following the debate with interest, though!

OP posts:
nauticant · 06/03/2021 09:11

whatson.parliament.uk/event/cal34164

As rabbitwoman says: e-petition 300976 relating to LGBT conversion therapy

Starts at 18.15 on Monday.

midgedude · 06/03/2021 09:10

I still don't see how surgery isn't considered a type of conversion

EdgeOfACoin · 06/03/2021 09:09

Look, I understand the rationale behind wanting something like this in place. I am just incredibly wary about how such a law would be drafted and where the lines are drawn between 'counselling', 'support' and 'conversion'.

EdgeOfACoin · 06/03/2021 09:05

Conversion therapy is the pseudoscientific practice of trying to change an individual's sexual orientation from homosexual or bisexual to heterosexual using psychological, physical, or spiritual interventions.

Yes - but how do you define 'spiritual intervention'? Is praying for someone on this matter going to be illegal, even if that person has requested it?

BuntingEllacott · 06/03/2021 09:03

Gay conversion therapy is abhorrent. Im not quite sure how the law should be written, but I do think a ban is appropriate for any situation that claims any kind of pseudo-professional authority.

However, helping people, be they children or adults, feel better about the sexed bodies they actually have, and be comfortable with their own clothing preferences, personality traits, and life ambitions is not conversion therapy and if anything is likely to scupper legislation to ban actual conversion therapy, it's the fucking arseholes trying to trojan horse this absolute bullshit in.

Sadly, many things make me angry, but as someone who endured and survived conversion therapy, it makes me apoplectic with rage at the despicable appropriation of my suffering to assist the further suffering of others.

highame · 06/03/2021 08:59

I think no government would ever legislate to prevent a person who wanted to seek out help, for what that individual sees as issues. We are entitled to seek counselling etc for any of our problems. I think organisations that believe homosexuality can be 'cured' is the issue. Some religions for example teach how wrong homosexuality is and therefore someone in their congregation, or a parent, might be channelled to a quasi-scientific therapy. Therefore, I think any organisation that seeks to 'convert' would be acting unlawfully, or at least I think that's what the original intention was.

Doesn't the trans argument do the opposite? If someone even suggested they might be trans, they must not be questioned at all.

FrickinA · 06/03/2021 08:54

Spoiler - it doesn’t work. But it can cause a lot of damage, particularly for younger people.

FrickinA · 06/03/2021 08:53

@EdgeOfACoin

Conversion therapy is the pseudoscientific practice of trying to change an individual's sexual orientation from homosexual or bisexual to heterosexual using psychological, physical, or spiritual interventions.

There you go. I have had friends who in the past have been forced, emotionally, physically, into this by parents, sometimes their peers at churches.
It’s to ‘de-gay’ people to make them normal.
Lots of evangelical preacher types still offer conversion therapy because it’s a sin blah blah blah...

EdgeOfACoin · 06/03/2021 08:44

Out of curiosity, what does 'conversion therapy' mean? Do we still have the practice of hooking people up to electrodes and giving them electric shocks? I thought that went out in the '60s. I think that practice should be outlawed, if it isn't already.

On the other hand, what if someone has homosexual feelings that they don't want? What if they ask a pastor to pray for them to make their feelings change? Now, you can argue that this is unlikely to be effective. You can make the case it would be better for that person to accept their sexuality. However, in a free country, where we are allowed to practise our own religion, should it be illegal to prevent someone from asking another person to pray with them about this? Should it be illegal for another person to agree?

Getting a bit more controversial... What if you have a man who is sexually attracted to underage boys. He is troubled by his feelings and wishes to seek help to reduce or quash them. He would prefer to be attracted to adult women. Can he get help for his feelings towards children, but not for his feelings towards males? What sort of help can he get?

The transgender issue is important (it effectively sanctions the affirmation-only approach, which is very worrying) but I think there are wider implications too.

OhHolyJesus · 06/03/2021 08:34

This is going to be very interesting, I have a vague memory of Liz Truss being expressly clear in a previous debate about this being about same-sexual attraction only.

Am I dreaming?

Maybe the T on the end was just a mistake, force of habit?

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