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Original poster

Parliamentary debate on Monday to ban gay conversion therapy

160 replies

rabbitwoman · 06/03/2021 08:12

Morning!

I have been keeping an eye out for a thread about this but can't see one....

Banning conversion therapy was a key manesfesto pledge by this government. Of course, gay conversion therapy is appalling and archaic and I am amazed its still legal in this country so of course I am all for a ban. The government have been slow off the mark, though.

A petition to ban conversion therapy reached 250000 so it is being raised in parliament on Monday. Great! I signed it myself.....

But then closer inspection of the wording of the petition raised alarm bells - it doesn't say gay conversion therapy, but LGBT therapy......

The recent decision to re evaluate the use of puberty blockers for children has caused a lot of anger and debate amongst many trans rights advocates, and I presume that the main thrust of the debate will be around the treatment of gender dysphoric children.

The Keira Bell case very much highlighted the problems with the Stonewall advocated approach of complete and immediate affirmation of transgender children and it would appear that actually, a range of treatments may be appropriate, including therapy and counselling that may question a child's gender distress and explore alternative causes, helping a child to successful outcomes that may not include transitioning.

In many places this has been reframed as 'conversion therapy'. I am very concerned that the thrust of the argument in parliament will be much less about the abhorrent practice of using psychological and physical torture to supress same sexual attraction, and more about outlawing a range of therapies for children presenting with gender dysphoria.

This has happened in Australia and the USA, and it looks like a call to folow suit here, which would raise concerns from a safeguarding viewpoint, as well as directly contradicting the findings of the recent Tavistock review. Making it illeagle to explore what could be alternative causes of gender dysphoria and heading straight to transition is a worrying treatment model.

There is also a lot of compelling evidence from the Tavistock review that gay children had been pushed into transition by homophobic parents - Marcus Evans, Susan Evans and Dr David Bell have all said this in public interviews.

The wording of this petition, though, seems to be a deliberate tactic to lump together perfectly reasonable and watchful therapies with abhorrent and sickening practises. I am concerned that the nuance will be missed by some and the progress that has been made since the review will be lost.

It is possible to believe that gay conversion therapy is wrong on every level, but also to think that hormones and surgery is not an appropriate pathway for many children currently identifying out of womanhood. Providing alternative treatments for gender dysphoric children should not be lumped in with gay conversion therapy.

I have tried to raise this on twitter and the replies I got seemed to be willfully refusing to see the difference.

I will be following the debate with interest, though!

OP posts:
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FindTheTruth · 13/03/2021 17:37

I really really really really hope the UK MPs debate is of a higher quality than the Canadian NDPs debate. we'll see ....

The Canadian NDP member of the Justice Committee which reviewed Bill C-6 Conversion therapy, says women like Keira Bell who have detransitioned are a ‘false narrative.’. (Plenty of Canadian detransitioners like Benji, but Keira gets called out because a High Court looked at facts and found the ideology wanting)

BuntingEllacott · 11/03/2021 19:44

Ozanne can get tae fuck, tbh. She's part of a church cohort that speaks out of both sides of their mouths and undermine the scant progress LGB people have made in a homophobic institution by being so desperate to accomodate the niche insecurities of straight people who have always been able to love and marry the people that they are attracted to without fear of hell or social censure for doing so. In fact, those straight people may even be told it's better to marry than not.

She's not standing against conversion therapy, she's casting herself as a martyr for the cause of people who still think being homosexual is adjustable and can be effectively hidden by claiming another identity.

Not that I have opinion.

allmywhat · 10/03/2021 19:23

It’s so illogical to equate the two! Not only are the etiologies of “gay” and “trans” completely different, so too are the consequences. If you identify as gay and then later decide you’re not, no harm has been done. The same can’t be said about identifying as trans. To put it mildly.

One thing I am wondering about equating actual gay conversion therapy with non-affirming therapy for trans people... are there knock on consequences for therapists whose clients are questioning their sexuality? Will it soon be as impossible for therapists to effectively counsel someone who’s wondering if she might be a lesbian, as it is becoming for them to counsel people who think they might be trans?

RozWatching · 10/03/2021 18:43

@BuntingEllacott

I'm a woman, and a feminist, I suffered conversion therapy.

Further justifications for the topic being on this board are not required, should anyone feel under any pressure to provide them.

Cake Wine

It's a real shame that it couldn't be just about gay conversion therapy, just this once, without a catch.

If Jayne Ozanne can't see the problem with affirming dysphoric kids, good riddance.

Original poster
rabbitwoman · 10/03/2021 18:03

.... More vague references to conversion therapy, linking the T in with LBG, without bring clear about exactly what T conversion therapy consists of within these proposals.

If it IS to ban watchful therapies, to prevent children with dysphoria from getting access to alternative therapies to affirmation and medical intervention, like Australia and the US, why don't they just SAY SO!

How many times are we going to have to ask for details?

They must KNOW that they cannot do this covertly, that people are watching?

OP posts:
Erkrie · 10/03/2021 17:24

Strange isn't it that standing up for safeguards should be the straw that breaks the camel's back...

Xanthangum · 10/03/2021 17:19

The debate on Monday is the straw that has broken Jayne Ozanne's back, apparently

www.itv.com/news/2021-03-10/exclusive-government-creating-hostile-environment-for-lgbt-people-says-adviser-as-she-quits-over-conversion-therapy

BuntingEllacott · 09/03/2021 14:11

I'm a woman, and a feminist, I suffered conversion therapy.

Further justifications for the topic being on this board are not required, should anyone feel under any pressure to provide them.

Erkrie · 09/03/2021 13:51

Shizuku's thread that you may wish to post on:

Ahh. I see.

nauticant · 09/03/2021 13:41

One issue is that although conversion therapy is being said to be equally relevant to gay and trans people, it means something different in those contexts.

For gay people conversion therapy is discussion and at its most extreme, a drug regime.

For trans people anti-conversion therapy is discussion and at its most extreme, a drug regime.

Original poster
rabbitwoman · 09/03/2021 13:33

@Shizuku

Either a discussion of conversion therapy involving transgender people is relevant to these boards or it isn't.
Super. This is a better starting point.

Indeed, since the Keira Bell case, it would appear there is evidence that gay children were being taken for treatment to the Tavistock because their homophobic parents were more comfortable having a transgender child than a gay one.

This was testified in court and three judges ruled against the Tavistock so it is a legal precident in this country.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2021 13:28

Just perhaps different individual posters have different opinions on that?

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 13:27

Either a discussion of conversion therapy involving transgender people is relevant to these boards or it isn't.

Original poster
rabbitwoman · 09/03/2021 13:24

@Shizuku

What does this have to do with feminism?
You are fairly new aren't you Shizuku?

You recently started a thread about suicide statistics that is currently being picked apart and is unravelling as we speak, bwith another poster then asking you 'what has this got to do with feminism?'

Look, tactics like that won't work. You are better off engaging with the topic in good faith. What do you think about the parliamentary debate?

It seems obvious that participants are deliberately lumping gay conversion therapy in with gender dysphoria treatments to obfuscate the debate, what do you think of this?

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2021 13:24

Shizuku's thread that you may wish to post on:

Conversion Therapy and a Survey of 25,896 LGBTQ youth www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4187324-Conversion-Therapy-and-a-Survey-of-25-896-LGBTQ-youth

RozWatching · 09/03/2021 13:23

@Shizuku

What does this have to do with feminism?
womansplaceuk.org/2020/11/30/keira-bell-there-was-nothing-wrong-with-my-body/
Erkrie · 09/03/2021 13:21

What does this have to do with feminism?

Why do you think it doesn't?

Shizuku · 09/03/2021 13:17

What does this have to do with feminism?

nauticant · 09/03/2021 11:36

I think you're right. It was propaganda until towards the end when there was discussion about the interaction of science and the law and at that point the conviction about being on the right side of history did get a bit shaky.

AbsintheFriends · 09/03/2021 11:33

I think we were making the same point nauticant, but you made it so much better!

Massive, massive trojan horse. But a shaky one, I'd say. In inviting this scrutiny are they not running the risk of more people noticing that gender identity is not remotely the same as sexual orientation and is arguably contradictory?

WarriorN · 09/03/2021 11:33

Has anyone pointed out that in some counties gay people are 'converted' to trans?

nauticant · 09/03/2021 11:31

If you're inclined to listen to this but are feeling low on patience, the most interesting parts are in the last 5 or so minutes.

AbsintheFriends · 09/03/2021 11:30

'Trans people are the most likely to go through conversion therapy in the UK'? Also, 'Trans people are often the most vulnerable' in the LGBT community.

What does conversion therapy look like for trans people? We've heard lots about how conversion therapy works for homosexuality (27 minutes or so) but what form does this 'most common' form of conversion therapy take? Is it just not affirming by using your GNC child's pronouns or new name? Encouraging watchful waiting in a distressed teenager?

nauticant · 09/03/2021 11:29

The examples of historical practices and science they talked about all related to homosexuality. That's right, only homosexuality. Which the self-declared queer presenter then summarised as including trans people and gender identity.

Considering that according to the statistics given at the start of the programme conversion therapy applied to trans people is far more prevalent than conversion therapy applied to gay people it is curious how they were unable to give examples of the former.

In fact, the only time the programme went in this direction was an expert talking about how a medical practitioner not sending a trans person to a specialist immediately might be said to be transphobic and that was a worry. Credit to the programme for including that at least.

A politician comes on to explain why the Bill including trans people is of paramount importance. Her argument was about "people being able to live their lives freely" but was otherwise incomprehensible.

It is a Trojan Horse.

AbsintheFriends · 09/03/2021 11:19

'There's no evidence that you will be healed. Most likely you will suffer worse mental health outcomes' after conversion therapy. (Healed of depression or suicidal ideation, I think?)

Now what does that remind me of?

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